Inequity as the Noumenon

What’s bolder than blowing up a planet?

Hey, why don’t we listen to this crazy psycho in a motorcycle helmet and let our enemies go?

I would say the final Driver is the Death Star blowing up. Your description would be good for the kind of motivation going on in the 4th Signpost.

The User Group for Shawshank was six years ago…but let’s see…

Looking at the storyform as a whole, within the context of Future (the Universe of the unjust imprisonment of an innocent man and the dark and doomed road ahead), the Story Drivers indicate an escalation of tension through supporting and endorsing others.

  • First Story Driver - Hey Mr. Dufresne, everyone here thinks you’re guilty but I think you’re an icy and remorseless man, so you know what? I’m going to double-endorse their conviction with two life sentences for you. Enjoy meeting the Sisters.

  • Second Story Driver - What did this fuckstick just say about my wife? Wait, he says I can use her (my support system) to avoid paying taxes? She’ll definitely go along with that. Enjoy the beers, boys.

  • Third Story Driver - You want to write some letters so these simpletons can learn to read? Fine, you go ahead. Write your letters–wait, you won’t open the door? I thought we were simpatico! Well then, you know what? Enjoy the hole (series of Decisions as its a slide in the Plot Progression)

  • Fourth Story Driver - Hey Tommy, let’s go for a walk. I heard you were thinking of testifying in support of Andy’s innocence. Oh yes sir, it’s the right thing to do. Oh, OK. Enjoy the bullet in your back.

  • Final Story Driver - Hmmm…I told Red all that crap about get busy living or get busy dying, but I’ve had it with this world. I’m all alone–wait, if I’m all alone then I really only have myself to rely on. You know what, let’s get busy living. Hey, warden, you were right – salvation lies within. Time to reap what you’ve sown.

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The question isn’t what you think about it. It’s what is true to the Story.

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These are so cool. Thanks! I would love to see you do a whole story form analysis with this sort of snarky comedy. It would make learning this super fun for us. I think the most powerul thing aout your Story Driver posts for Shawshank and Star Wars is that you gave me the POV for each one in the snarky voices.

Can we categorize a Decsion Driver as Mind or Psychology and for Action as Universe or Physics?

I’m wondering if these could possibly align with the bump slide pattern.

Like what if All the bumps are from one domain and the slides another for a given story and its drivers. What do you think?

Is it possible that the oppening driver to Star Wars is a slide and that is part of why this exercise was so hard?

Bumps and slides are clear for only three of the five drivers, right?

Just a quick philosophical detour. But, I have heard people often say that an inequity is not a thing and unknowable. But, the title of this thread is Noumenon and it seems like Noumenon more accurately describes the inequity as unknowable by a posteriori methods and therfore requires a stroy to connect to it. However, one could possibly know it a priori (like numbers) and it would therfore be like an archetype. Finally settling the debate that it is a thing in the sense that it is an abstract concept describing the relationship of an occurrence and an expectation and possibly knowable a priori and unknowable a posteriori.

So, a more accurate statement would be that inequities are not phenomenal.

Just in case this was bothering anyone else.

I’m going to have to get out my dictionary Brian :sunglasses:.

A priori (from what is before) knowledge is independent of all particular experiences.

A posteriori (from what is after) knowledge is derived from experience.

Used originally to distinguish between arguments from causes and arguments from effects.

I was kind of looking at Noumenon as describing the big “I” Inequity. The idea being, inequities (small i) exist everywhere… but until they are acknowledged, recognized, or thought of as such (become contradictory to a bearable zen/happy universe), they don’t become the big “I.” I thought this was where the “Sense of Separation” came into the picture.

I guess this requires my concept of Inequity to be posteriori or experiential. Maybe inequity is priori?

Once an inequity is recognized, it becomes an Inequity and knowable through phenomena? I found it interesting that what I thought as the Inequity could effect on a micro scale (MCT, ICT, RST) or a Macro scale (OST) first and then radiate out from that point of origin to each Throughline. That would explain the different Points of Attack.

I guess you could describe it in different ways. Trickle down Inequity or a reverberating effect Inequity in a pond. Whatever helps your mind wrap around it most easily.

Maybe illustrated by Chicken Little vs. Shenandoah (GREAT JIMMY STEWART MOVIE)

I wonder if an inequity is unknowable because it requires context and perspective derived from Universe, Physics, Mind, and Psychology? That’s kind of what I was touching on in regards to forms and objects that can be seen.

What was a little frustrating about this forum topic for me was the tendency of being told what is… but I didn’t see a very clear path (for me) in arriving at that conclusion without blind trust. I could very well be using a sense of separation, inequity, Inequity, Inciting incident, etc. wrong. But I want someone to understand my madness rather than just call it madness.

I’m a teacher/professor by trade. I use scaffolding to build my students to a particular level of understanding in performing arts. I don’t require an adherence to terminology and I have always believed that a reckoning between what a person already knows and what they are learning makes something stick (because that works for me).

Anyway, still just putting pen to paper and happy with the results regardless.

Are you a professor of Philosophy, per chance?

An absolutely understandable approach, which is actually quite different from mine. I tend to “wipe the slate clean” as it were, and allow the culmination of connections to reveal itself. It gives me a rather mechanical approach to many things, which is likely why Dramatica appeals to me as much as it does. To me, it feels much like programming or mathematics, while still allowing an insane amount of creative freedom.

But, now that I have a better understanding of what you seem to be looking for, if you’d allow me, I’d like to try a different explanation. Hopefully, I’ll be able to present my thought process behind it as well, and maybe allow you to follow a path.


When I first read the word “inequity” or “Inequity”, I had no concept of meaning to which I could attach the word, and definitions didn’t help. As you did, I found the example of a car and a desire for a car. I also tried to reconcile that language with experience, and I read it as “something to want” and “something wanted.”

However, I felt unable to reconcile this wording with certain other stories. Star Wars is one; my current WIP is another. Even Captain America: Civil War seemed to not quite fit. I had thought I missed something in my understanding, and I assumed that I was not being specific enough in my choice.

From there, I turned toward psychology and the theories about what desire actually is. These helped some, but they only brought me so far. Most claim desire is an internal feeling involving the mismatch of the current world and a perceived, possible, future world. This definition of desire so strongly resembled Jim’s explanation of [Ii]nequity that I tried expanding my own interpretation per my research.

That expansion went from “something to want” and “something wanted” to something more closely resembling what you have in your original post. I tried as a definition, “The way a character perceives the world and what is possible in that world does not match the way the world actually is.” Again, this brought it closer, but it didn’t feel like it quite reached what Jim was getting at.

Thus, I applied a different sort of thinking, and tried to look for the Inequity in these movies. For Star Wars, I asked what the characters could see? My interpretation was that the characters could see a world in which they were no longer under the thumb of the Empire. With that, I asked how that world really is? Again, I interpreted it as a universe in which the Empire exists. This certainly feels like an imbalance, but was it an/the [Ii]nequity? Well, that would seem to depend on who you ask, and it absolutely doesn’t match the conventional wisdom of an “Inciting Incident”. I couldn’t be sure, but I accepted it as close enough for purposes of use.

To really to to get a handle on what an Inequity may or may not be, I then tried to apply it to my WIP. I asked what my characters want. They, generally, want to know more about the myths and history of their world, especially how such history and myth derived. Then, I asked how the world currently is. Well, the answer: It’s a bit warped, as there is both the spirit world and human world, either of which barely hang on to the other through myth. This, to me, didn’t feel like what an/the [Ii]nequity was said to be. Time for another approach to define that elusive concept.

The new approach was to explore the gestalt of what connects all the characters, the POV (Main) character I chose, and why the story exists in the first place. This involved thinking about why I wanted to write the novel in the first place. Here are the reasons:

  • I have a character that was forced to shift into a spirit form.
  • I have a Dual World in which the actors in either mirror the other, and both worlds are unaware of the truth of the other, at first.
  • I have the POV character either accidentally calling, or being called, by the spirits. (Still figuring that out.)

However, none of these, as separate occurrences introduce any true imbalance into the fictional world. To see this, think about whether any of the statements can truly cause problems if left alone. It seems something needs to be added, or all three need to be mixed before a story can develop. Thus, I came to the conclusion that an [Ii]nequity is not completely knowable, but must be felt within the context of a story, as it requires a number of points before you can truly find what it is.

The results of this investigation led me to believe that it is extraordinarily easy to point out what an inequity isn’t, but to point out what it is requires showing it in context. Without context, there can be no inequity.


Wow that was a long post. Hopefully, I managed to write a path instead of a definition, though.

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No. I don’t mind it or stealing some concepts for my personal needs, but I sometimes find philosophy quite like bed-spins or a dog chasing its own tail.

I am a performing arts teacher at the moment. I teach at an international school in China.

A very Bruce Lee attitude.

I’m still deciphering my process. I find that I can feel overwhelmed if I don’t focus on the micro as opposed to the macro. The entire holistic vs linear debate is an interesting one for me. I feel holistic in many ways, but I recently came to the conclusion that it depends on the environment.

For example, if I am in Wal-mart and I’ve surpassed my tolerance of external stimuli, then I magically turn into a linear problem solver. I make a beeline for a solution. There’s the bread. Get it. Go.

At some point, every day, I hit a threshold where I can’t take external stimuli anymore. Which is hard sometimes because my wife is an extrovert. She has to go out to feel the stimuli or it will make her go crazy being stuck in the house.

If you are an introvert (or maybe this is something else just shoved under that umbrella) you probably know what I’m talking about.

Literally, I can be doing some writing on the bed and my wife will drive me crazy because she always has to have music playing and always has to have physical contact with me. Even those things can be too much sensory input.

So, my point being, I feel like my mental sex depends on the context. I don’t know if that is possible in Dramatica theory, but it makes a lot of sense to me. A helluva lot.

I’m trying to create a very rule-laden personal process for myself. I like working with a ruleset, but then breaking or bending the rules creatively. If I don’t limit myself, the sheer number of possibilities will leave me bewildered and stunned.

I can see a relation between PRCO and this.

Potential – A latent tendency towards some attitude or action.

Resistance – A tendency towards inertia.

Current – The flow of a process.

Outcome – An assessment of how things ended up.

But I find PRCO to be a bit slippery/elusive when trying to turn it into a process. Like trying to grab tofu with a pair of chopsticks. I’ve mastered that by the way. The chopsticks, not PRCO.

If the Goal is the target, isn’t the Outcome very closely related to this? Looking at the Dramatica definition and some of Jim’s writings about PRCO (I think in the article about the perfect scene or the article about the woman seeking a divorce), I get a distinctly different feeling about what Outcome is. I’m going to take another look at the two, but at the moment (from memory) I’m having a hard time reconciling the two definitions.

I appreciate your response. @Hunter. I’ve got a class coming up, even if there is more to be said. I suppose it will have to wait until another time. Thanks.

Wow, excellent post @Hunter.

I honestly think this is the best approach to learn Dramatica, because it is such a paradigm shift from other story theories. Constantly trying to see Dramatica concepts in light of those other theories, or vice versa, is just going to mess you up. For example, I’ve noticed a lot of references to Dwight Swain, whose book on writing* is fantastic – but from my recollection of it, 95-99% is focused on the techniques of story-telling. Not in the same domain as Dramatica at all.

* I’ve only read Techniques of the Selling Writer, so maybe he has other books that talk more about narrative structure.

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I’m the one with the undergrad degrees in Math and Philosophy. Sometime I need to get clinically accurate to compnsate for my lack of spatial awareness when using Dramatica. But, once I do it, I can just play again. I also Went to Film school and all the jargon is crazy there. But, the screenwriting grad degree I earned last year was infinitely more challenging for me.

This one concept is at the core of everything.

I just asked Chris about this at the DUG last night. So, here is my best shot it:

The inequity is the seperation of expectation and the occurrence. It occurs in the mind of the author as an platonic archetype of gestalt. (Noumenon)

In a GAS, there are four views of it and they are out of balance with ach other.

The inequity in the OS creates two bonded things that cannot coexist. (Phenomenon)

Potential is the force between those two things attracted or repelled by each other.

Resistance are the obstacles preventing them from being a single thing again through any manner of processes.

Current is the process they go through to reposition.

Outcome or Power is the new potential created between the two for the next cycle or the elimination of potntial by eliminating the other.

In Star Wars,

The two things in the OS are The Empire’s Death Machine and The Rebels with the Plans of How it Works.

Problems of Test occur.

In the end the one thing is The Plans because the Death Star is destroyed with Trust.

Test is the problem and Trust the Solution. I believe Trust is locked down until the end when it becomes the one thing.

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Everyone has both mental sexes. In a story we care about where the justifications are that are working or not working for that perspective in question.

I’m an ENFP. So, I am Holistic dominant. But, my issues with writing and reading are a linear problem due to a lack of spatial awareness (Si and Se). So, as I change, Jim, DUG and Chris act holistically to disrupt any linear Justifications I might have that aren’t serving me in regard to dramatica. This is personal for me and impersonal for them. This makes me the MC and them the IC.

We just watched The Accountant who is INTJ (holistic dominant like me). But, his Justifications are linear. So, he is a Linear MC and the IC, Dana and his brother Braxton, that acts on him is Holistic.

Hope this helps.

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I would never in a million years describe it this way–because I think I take my understanding of it for granted (not because it’s deficient)–but this looks right to me.

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It really does help Brian. The separation of expectation and occurrence explanation jives with where my mind went and wanted to go. It makes very efficient sense compared to my wandering musings. Thanks.

I think that expectations and reality are often at odds, but it is when we are heavily invested emotionally that the distance between pushes us to some type of action. Filed and done. Confirmation.

I really like these definitions as well. This is less opaque for my sensibilities. Let me know if this works:

Potential

Potential has to do with the possibility that:

reality and desired reality are “have your cake and eat it too” (cannot coexist). Thus, one must destory the other for a Throughline to be balanced (happy, Zen, whatever);

or

reality and desired reality are complimentary to each other in such a way that a third thing (compromised reality) can come to be that completely exhausts, or lessons the potential (energy) for conflict between the original reality and desired reality.

Current

Current could be represented by physical activities (physics) or mental activities (psychology) directed at a reality (universe) or desired reality (mind) to either:

completely remove the reality in question;

or

completely remove the specific desire in question;

or

creating a third reality that satisfies the original reality and original desired reality via compromise. This making the current dormant or slowed considerably.

Outcome

Outcome or Power is any remaining potential that still exists that could be affected by a catalyst or inhibitor or new context but is resolved (at least temporarily or for the time being);

or

the reality or desired reality has come to be dominant and the other is destroyed;

or

a new reality forms that is balanced (a workable compromise).

Mental Sex

I suspect what you are talking about is true, but I see the practicality of choosing a dominant mental sex.

I wonder if mental sex can be simplified (greatly) by saying one sex looks at the micro outcome vs. the macro outcome. Or that one looks at the gain vs. cost and the other the gain vs. the total cost. It’s seems simple enough.

I’ve seen mention of dominant senses in some of readings as of late and I think the practicality exists there as well. When setting a scene, we could very well hit a reader with sensory input from all five senses but choosing two works in our favor as it saves time and it defines our characters by exclusion or preference.

It took me a long time write this. So your comment @jhull just showed up for me (as I scrolled down). For some reason this description really clicks for me. Thanks all.

PRCO
You got it! My brain keeps trying to find the fourth option. I believe it is that they part ways or die off, but one legacy survives.

Mental Sex
Think of Requirements and conditions.

A man will believe he is entitled to sex if he takes all the right steps.

A woman will only engage in sex if the conditions are right.

Don’t click on these unless you are up for some crass humor…

Women (female mental sex) and their mood
http://datingprinciple.com/2016/05/18/chris-rock-women-are-all-about-the-mood/
(I couldn’t find this video clip, but Chris Rock is hilarious in it)

Women (female mental sex) use relationships to get their needs met vs men using cause and effect:

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I have only recently become acquainted with Dramatica. Like others, I questioned whether the theory was sound, whether the terms were truly objective, and so on.

Then I watched Pinocchio a few times with my daughter.

Then I began to analyze Pinocchio using Dramatica theory, as I lay awake in bed one night. It all started to make a lot more sense.

I highly recommend Pinocchio for analysis. It is very structured, very much a Grand Story Argument. There are many other highly structured stories, as well.

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From Can you explain the Story Driver further?:

"Star Wars (1977) has a Story Driver of Action. The inciting event is the theft of the Death Star plans by the Rebellion. What decisions follow that driver? The Empire decides to disband the Senate, kidnap Princess Leia, and take their secret weapon out of hiding. If the plans had not been stolen, would the Empire have decided to do the same things within the same time frame? No. The Death Star was not yet complete. The theft of the plans forced the Empire to change plans. "

So which is it?

Very cool @rallen! It’s great when Dramatica starts to click and make sense (but it can take a while).

Have you seen the Dramatica user’s group analysis?

https://narrativefirst.com/blog/the-long-lost-storyform-for-walt-disneys-pinocchio

Regarding Star Wars:

Do you mean is it Action or Decision? Star Wars has an Action driver. This means that the story turns on Actions rather than Decisions. So the stealing of the plans (Action) forces the Empire and the Rebels to make a bunch of decisions.

If you’re like me, figuring out story drivers isn’t intuitive. But like everything else in Dramatica, I persist with confidence that eventually it will be.

I think he is pointing out the apparent contradiction in these two statements.

@rallen I think that the answer is simply: people’s understanding of Dramatica evolves over time.

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Sorry I wasn’t reading carefully enough (didn’t look at the post @rallen was responding to).

Yes, and also the understanding of what’s actually there in a story’s structure can evolve.

3 posts were split to a new topic: Revisiting the Pinnochio Analysis