In the What is the difference between Issue and Counterpoint? two examples are given to illustrate the difference between self-interest & morality as both issue and counterpoint.
I hate to sound thick, but I was wondering if there are other examples, using other pairs, to help get a better grasp of how they work and, better still, how to isolate them.
PS
Sorry if this has already been addressed, just am not sure where to look.
If you pick any of the Comprehensive examples here on Dramatica, they usually give both the Issue and the Counterpoint for that story. If there are any other stories in particular that youâd like to look at, we could try and pick out the Issue and Counterpoint in them together.
I made this example. I am not a Dramatica expert but I thought it would be fun to make an example. Please, anyone, point out mistakes and/or misinformation. I challenge others to create more examples in this thread. It seems like a good exercise.
A throughline with Confidence as the Issue puts Confidence front and center. Worry is seen as the contrast to Confidence. Both of them are seen in the larger context of Impulsive Responses (the Concern).
EXAMPLE: CONFIDENCE VS. WORRY
A support group of Alcoholics meet every week at a bar to discuss their plans for future success (Concern of Impulsive Responses). The alcoholics are sure they will begin working toward their goals tomorrow (Issue of Confidence). One member of the group is concerned for their futures if they donât learn to overcome their addictions (Counterpoint of Worry). Both Confidence and Worry are explored in terms of Hunch, Theory, Test and Trust.
A throughline with Worry as the Issue puts Worry front and center. Confidence is seen as the contrast to Worry. Both of them are seen in the larger context of Impulsive Responses (the Concern).
EXAMPLE: WORRY VS. CONFIDENCE
A support group of alcoholics meets every week at a bar to discuss their plans for their future success (Concern of Impulsive Responses). The addictive personalities donât act on their plans because theyâre afraid they will fail just like every other time they have tried to better themselves. (Issue of Worry). One member of the group is confident that if they just do it they will overcome their addictive impulses (Counterpoint of Confidence). Both Worry and Confidence are explored in terms of Result, Process, Accurate and Non-Accurate.
Sam,
Maybe Iâm not seeing it right, but I wonder if itâs a domain of fixed attitude, or one of manipulation? People with a negative Fixed Attitude toward drink abstain, donât they, but if one drinks and wants to change, thatâs an internal dynamic domain, so falls under manipulation. Doesnât it?
Wouldnât a Concern of Developing a Plan work better for that? Maybe with an Issue of State of Being (Iâm an alcoholic) VS Sense of Self (Iâm too weak to change on my own).
Just a thought, but how about something like this:
Sense of Self VS State of Being: Alcoholics who feel lost and helpless, drowning in their own addiction (Sense of Self), decide to develop a buddy system (Develop a Plan) and keep track of one another in the hopes that they can stay dry (State of Being). Explored in terms of: Ability, Desire, Projection, Speculation.
State of Being VS Sense of Self: Alcoholics whoâve tried every program out there, but failed to kick the habit (State of Being), decide to get together (Developing a Plan) and get a better grasp of their addiction through sharing of their own personal experiences with others (Sense of Self). Explored in terms of: Knowledge, Thought, Inertia, Change.
Both sets of examples are good though @SPotter when it comes to Preconscious/Impulsive Responses you might find a better context within people who numb themselves with alcohol or become agitated with alcohol. When youâve numbed yourself to the point of not having any anxiety anymore (Worry) you tend to participate in activities you normally wouldnât (alcohol as a gateway drug etc). Likewise when youâre agitated you lack the confidence that youâll be able to hide it in certain social circles.
When it comes to the State of Being Issue you probably want to look at how alcohol brings out the worst in people causing them to expose their true selves, whether as bitter people or depressed souls â you want to be specific about the illustration of the issue otherwise youâre just parroting Dramaticaâs storyform and you wonât actually have a story.
Thank you, Jim. Will apply myself to write more (and be more specific). I think @SPotter is right in turning this into an exercise.
Does which is the Issue have anything to do with which of the two the author is arguing in favor of, depending on Story Outcome?
How do the Issues and Counterpoints of each Throughline interact? I found the following statement in regard to the MC Issue under Usage (I canât italicize the italics parts. When I try, it just surrounds the statement with asterisks):
"In the midst of a battlefield our Main Character notices a single flower growing up through the rubble.
At the frenetic High School dance, a girl sits all alone, unnoticed.
How can she be unnoticed if we noticed her? Because âOveralllyâ no one sees her - they are âallâ concerned with dancing. But the Main Character looks across the room and observes the discrepancy.
In both these cases, the Overall Theme is the initial condition which is then âshadedâ in light of the Main Characterâs Theme.
Conversely, the Main Character might be walking down the street, self-consciously trying to hide a zit on the tip of her nose, when she turns a corner just in time to see the âBurn Victim Support Groupâ marching in a parade.
In this case, the Main Characterâs Theme is the initial condition, which is modulated by the Overall Theme."
Iâm not sure if the battlefield has anything to do with the dance (is that supposed to be a Concern of Doing?), except they were both italicized. The Issues werenât defined so I donât understand the examples or what is meant by a âconditionâ (a stance on the Issue?) being âshaded.â
Iâm a bit confused about that FAQâs example of Morality VS Self-Interest.The teachers giving up salary (Morality) to help the school Obtain money were seen as contributing, but the Self-Interested principal wanting to boost his reputation didnât seem to conflict with Morality because he wasnât presented as an obstacle, unless I understood it wrong. Wouldnât it make more sense to have an Antagonist or obstacle represent the counterpoint? For example, some developer wants to make lots of money to buy a gold bathtub (Self-Interest) and thus works against the schoolâs goal in hopes of having it shut down and paved for condos. Maybe a natural disaster ruins many of the teachersâ homes, so if they choose to keep their money (Self-Interest), it interferes with Obtaining.
Maybe this will help? http://storymind.com/dramaticapedia/Theme/1.htm
@Jerome Thanks. That explains some things. Are the 4 Issues supposed to interact with each other in a specific way, or is it just something the audience senses?
My understanding is to play them out one at a time, based on which throughline youâre currently writing.
Look at the movie Body Heat. Thereâs a scene in the restaurant where Ned Racine meets Mattie Walkerâs husband who talks about how to get ahead in life you sometimes need to screw people over. The scene plays out in the overall story throughline which deals with Self-Interest VS Morality.
The following scene, Ned Racine whoâs been toying with the idea of stealing Mattie away from her husband finally makes up his mind and declares, âIâm going to kill him.â This scene plays out in the MC throughline which deals with Delay VS Choice.
The interesting thing to notice is that it also plays out in the OS theme of Self-Interest VS Morality. So there, itâs a double layer.
The idea is to use the plot sequence report which gives you sixteen key scenes to hit during the course of your story. Itâs a way to plot out the story and keep it moving (as far as I understand it).
If youâve got the right story engine for your story (which I still find VERY hard to figure out), then it gives you a good starting point for figuring out how to structure your story.
That makes sense.
Why are Responsibility and Commitment opposites? They seem very similar to me and I would think the opposite of Responsibility would be recklessness.
Good question. My best answer would be to look at the example given for Body Heat, but I think this would be best answered by a Dramatica Story Expert.
Irresponsibility (recklessness) is not the opposite of Responsibility, it is the negative of Responsibility in the same way that a lack of Faith is the negative of Faith while the opposite of Faith is Disbelief.
Practically if you have a responsibility to someone or something it makes it difficult to maintain commitments elsewhere (integrity). Conversely, committing to someone increases oneâs sense of responsibility to that same person. The first example shows the dynamic pairs in opposition; the second in collaboration (positive).
Thank you Jim. That clarifies a lot for me too.
Now we should try and come up with more examples to flex those thematic (and writing) muscles.
Somewhat adding to that. One google+ we once had a similar discussion but with elements and I suggested reading up on the semiotic square (signosemio & wiki) and the difference between contrariety and contradiction. Considering that it basically uses its own version of âquadsâ it seems fairly interesting to Dramatica Users in general.
Thank you @bobRaskoph. Time for us to put our thinking caps on.
Well, the key difference between Dynamic Pairs and the semiotic squares is that Dynamic Pairs revolve around static versus dynamic (and external versus internal in some cases), while the semiotic squares focus on negation.
How about Rationalization versus Obligation?
Issue of Rationalization: How about a circle of art thieves who claim theyâre âliberating art from the oppressive confines of institutionalized tedium.â One of the characters, maybe the Main Character, is starting to realize how crappy of a case this idea is, and he wants to get out. Heâs starting to see that no matter how âvaliantâ this heading may be, itâs putting him at huge risk. Whatâs more, his daughterâs about to get married, and his wifeâs starting to wonder about his âbusiness tripsâ more and more. So for the sake of his family, heâs gonna try and âretire.â 'Course, thatâs not how it works in the art heist businessâŚ
Issue of Obligation: This time, our character with the desire to escape isnât tied down because he believes in the specious cause they share, but to protect and conserve his future. Say, heâs being forced to help the art thieves because theyâve threatened to kill that about-to-be-married daughter. He has to help the thieves then to maintain his future. But maybe what the story would reveal is that the character doesnât try to fight this whole arrangement because heâs actually a coward. All those claims of âOh well, guess I canât fight back if they have my daughter hostageâ are just smoke. So maybe heâd rediscover his confidence and dare to stand up against the art thieves, free his daughter, and get out of the life for good.
Iâm not sure if this is even⌠remotely right, but whatever, this is my attempt to get in the game! 