MC crucial element stolen by another character?

[jmk2020]

I’m unsure whether DSE is trying to point out a hole in my story or whether previous tinkering has fouled up my Story Engine.

Below is a screenshot of the Characteristics tab in DSE. I assume that the red and blue triangles in the top left corner of the two boxes–HINDER and HELP–containing the labels MC and IC, indicate the crucial elements for the MC and IC.

However, why is one of those boxes (labelled MC) filled by another character (who is not the MC)? Is this a technical glitch or error I have made or is it the logical result of my story choices?

I don’t want this configuration (or at least I don’t believe I do!). The MC should contain Help/crucial element. So, what would be the correct way to correct this error?

Perhaps the real reason that I am confused is because within the Story Engine tab (screenshot below) I see that the MC Response is Help–therefore, the MC crucial element is Help. So why is this not reflected in the Characteristics tab?

I’m left confused as to why these two indicators of the MC crucial element do not correspond. Until I figure that out I’m wary of making changes.

Your insights and suggestions are welcomed and appreciated!

[jhull]

Search “Crucial Element” here and you’ll find the answer

[Lakis]

@jhull I know that sometimes the IC and MC can appear reversed in the Crucial Element slots (which has been discussed).

But I think @jmk2020 was asking a different question – why a different player (neither IC nor OS) might appear in the Crucial Element slot. There’s no structural reason this would ever happen, right? I think he must have put a different player in that slot before he finalized the storyform.

[jhull]

The Crucial Element and Archetypes

1 I don't understand why the IC Crucial Element is on the MC, and why the MC Crucial Element is on the Antagonist. The IC is not the Antagonist. [image] 2 It's also unintuitive to me that the Crucial Elements are in the Evaluation set. I just read the formulation for Crucial Element - if change and success, MC CE is Problem, so that actually checks out here. But his Problem is assigned to another character. I guess I just don't understand how to read this graphic. ... a few minutes lat…

Critical Element not on Element held by MC or IC

I'm guessing you're using Archetypes with the Build Characters in Dramatica. This can often result in a Main Character or Influence Character falling away from their Crucial Element. You don't want to do this. The Crucial Element ties the objective and subjective views of the narrative together. You'll want to move the MC and IC characters into their respective positions as shown in the Build Characters window.

Additional examples of Characteristics

I've been looking through the Dramatica Analysis pages and blogs for a few years now, and as far as I know, most people focus on the Story Forms to the exclusion of the Character Building stuff. Apart from some mentions here and there on discuss, storymind and narrativefirst (and even then it's mostly just problem, solution, focus, direction and/or crucial elements), you won't find much about it. I assume that there simply isn't enough reward for the time and effort required to somewhat-accurate…

Just searched for crucial element archetypal characters

[Lakis]

Lol I didn’t even think of archetypes since I never use them.

Thanks.

[jmk2020]

In fact, I did search, find, and read those posts already. By this point I think I’ve read just about everything ever written on the crucial element. I just didn’t think the issue I was facing would actually be coming from within the software.

Anyways, I remember reading that archetypal characters were best used as a starting point. So, I guess this is a good point in my process to address that and add some dynamism.

[Prish]

@jmk2020

that archetypal characters were best used as a starting point.

I always took it to mean while in the mulling it over stage. Usually, we picked at least one complex choice/combo/whatever in the storyforming choices that was fun.

[MWollaeger]

@jmk2020

I just didn’t think the issue I was facing would actually be coming from within the software.

I think it’s worth pointing out that the software will not place or force you to place the MC in the box with their crucial element.

[jhull]

Yes, the Archetypes are a great starting point, and an even better way to learn the theory.

You have a Protagonist in a story where the Crucial Element is Help - Like Water for Chocolate has a similar structure (though it looks like yours doesn’t turn out quite as well ). Chocolate is also Holistic, so it’s not a one-for-one match…but the idea is that you have a character motivated by Pursuit, Consider, and Help - so, not only addressing the inequity of the story, but also assisting those in need - perhaps, going the extra mile when help is needed.