Not all illustrations are born the same

#21

I’ll have to remember that! (FYI @YellowSuspenders I always take Jim’s recommendations to heart because of the experience he gets working with so many other writers – you can only learn so much working on your own stories)

:blush: (Thanks Jim.) Note my “all out” included a mentorship with Jim which was invaluable. Highly, highly recommended! I also had a certain advantage in having very little experience with other story theories, so fewer preconceptions to hold me back.

One thing to keep in mind, your subconscious probably groks Dramatica pretty well, since you presented a story idea in your other thread that had four clear throughlines, with the Concerns all in the right places, and had the MC and OS throughlines thematically aligned in the right way. So it’s not like you’re starting from scratch. But, the more you learn Dramatica, the more your conscious mind can tango in step with your Muse – and that’s important, because you need your conscious mind to write. Also, you can use Dramatica to fix any blind spots in your ideas (mine is always the freaking Story Limit – including it in the first half of the story is so unnatural for me!).

#22

I think of Dramatica as a useful tool. It is a way of understanding Grand Argument Stories, much like Newtonian physics is a useful tool which helps us understand the world. Someday it may be replaced with something better just as Newtonian physics was replaced with relativity.

#23

I seriously hope you’re right about that. I feel like I’m reading a Quantum Physics textbook whenever I come to this forum. The only thing that makes it bearable is the fact that there are so many good people who are patient enough to help explain it.

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#24

Thanks. That, I really understand.

Let me explain a little bit about me. I grew up in a holy roller church and school. I was taught that somethings are not to be questioned. In college, I participated in a martial arts club and, when I was going up for my 2nd black belt five years later, I was told by the head of the system that I was going to hell because I told him that whether or not I believe in God depends on what he meant by God. He told me that somethings are not to be questioned.

It makes me really, really nervous when I get the feeling that some group I’m new to believes that there are some things which are not to be questioned. I don’t know, maybe I get nervous too quickly. I ask questions constantly when I’m learning.

So, I’m thankful that you took the time to answer my question. I do believe that, as you wrote,

And I hope I haven’t offended anyone.

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#25

Well put. But keep in mind that Newtonian physics wasn’t “replaced” – it’s still used all the time because it’s still completely valid at macroscopic scales and velocities not significantly approaching the speed of light (etc.).

Newtonian physics was and is useful because it makes testable predictions which can and have been verified over and over again. Just like Dramatica!

I can certainly see Dramatica being refined, and indeed it has been over the years, as some terminology has been iterated upon to grow more accurate, or sometimes rolled back when the original terminology has proven better. I’ve noticed both Jim and @chuntley (co-creator) often talk about things that they now understand better than they did five or ten years ago. So that’s much like physics too – our understanding is constantly being refined.

I’m very glad to see your last post and where you’re coming from. Being open and willing to question your own approach and preconceptions will definitely serve you well in learning Dramatica. As far as being too questioning, I think as long as you’re willing to listen carefully and take the time to learn, no one will be offended.

(And sorry about the obtuse PRCO reference before – definitely not something you should be worried about at this point!)

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#26

In this case, “valid” means “a reasonable approximation.” It doesn’t mean truth. Even in velocities much slower than the speed of light, Relativity is closer to the truth. It is what allows global positioning systems to work. http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/~pogge/Ast162/Unit5/gps.html

#27

No offense at all. And please feel free to ask any questions you might have–the only annoying thing is people who have their own versions of Dramatica and refuse to actually listen and engage in dialogue–you don’t have that problem at all.

You bring up relativity - you likely want to Google “mental relativity” and “Dramatica”.

#28

If you can’t question it, it’s not worth its salt.

There are things that will frustrate me, but not questions that are aimed at understanding the theory better.

This really depends on your effort but also what you want to get out of it. Also, the learning will go on forever if you want it to.

#29

Regarding the idea that PSR variations should create inequity wherever possible, my OS Signpost 2 is Obtaining
The PSR Variations are
Wisdom
Skill
Experience
Enlightenment

I have absolutely no idea how any of those can create inequity unless they are meant to be things the antagonist has that the protagonist doesn’t, so the antagonist gains an advantage?

#30

Wisdom: you are trying to write a story that stands out, but everyone here not only knows the program, they know how to use the program.

Skill: But, you know that deep down, you have what it takes. So you sit and write, but somehow what you have bubbling inside doesn’t make it to the page. This imbalance between your inner world and your outer world gives you insomnia, which only makes everything harder.

Experience: Still, being awake allows you to think through your drafts and you start rewriting them in your head. However, you have proven to yourself by your first draft that things in your head are not the same as things on the page. You grow more confident and more fearful at the same time.

Enlightenment: You wake up without ever remembering that you fell asleep. Things feel crystalized so you wander over to your desk and write down what you remember. It’s just notes, but they ring true. Later, your roommate finds them and when you come across him, he is crying. “You have written the most beautiful poem I’ve ever read,” he says.

Obtaining: Well, you’ve certainly got something, but you wanted a novel. Looking at your poem, you try to figure out if this was a blessing from the gods or if you should stick to your guns and try to turn it into a novel.

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#31

I grew up with that kind of black and white thinking too. We are all for questioning here— that is how I ended up here. In Dramatica, we come to a consensus in every meeting about the storyform. So, usually it is a matter of making sure we are applying the theory correctly.

As for other systems, the analogs for other story theories to physics or math, are out there, but not as well formalized. You can research the Sequence method for the subjective one and Kal Bashir for the Hero Journey. But, you will be back here in the end because each of those imply Dramatica and vice versa.

You can thank Kurt Godel for that. :wink:

We recommend just learning one story theory at a time. Dramatica is the most formalized and will not steer you wrong. I learned the other ones first and wished I had learned Dramatica first.

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#32

I keep advocating Armando’s book Dramatica for Screenwriters. Have you read it? He has a few different chapters in there where he gives examples of how to encode and illustrate Signposts with PSR variations (in a couple of different ways). I found it very illuminating and keep re-reading it. Actually the whole book has been really indispensable for my journey so far in learning how to actually apply Dramatica to writing.

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#33

I have started to worry that people read the word “consensus” as “compromise”, so I just want to clarify that they aren’t the same.

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#34

Hey @YellowSuspenders isn’t OS act(signpost) 2 the part where Luke joins with the other incarnates, but most of them are suspicious and don’t like him? Meanwhile the evil dark elf is out murdering the not-yet-incarnated teenagers, and Boone & Luke & others go on missions to stop him but he’s always one step ahead?

Here are some ideas from your summary you posted before.

Wisdom – Donny and others think it’s a huge mistake (unwise) for Boone to have brought Luke into the camp (Luke = Loki = dangerous). Maybe they’re right.
Experience – Luke is a total noob here, and lacks the experience to use his wyrd. In stark contrast to all the experienced incarnates in the camp. (conflict around whether he should even come on the missions)
Skill – TDE is too fast / too strong / too good for them. They’re outmatched, and lack the skill to stop him.

  • Luke trains to use a sword and other special weapons (is there some conflict here?)
    Enlightenment – two girls in the camp are more enlightened about Luke and his dark destiny, and make friends with Luke. They each think their ideas are the most enlightened, e.g. “nothing but destiny” vs. “there’s no such thing as destiny”. Meanwhile, Boone seeks to make Luke consider that destiny can be transcended.
#35

I’ve been continuing to fiddle with the storyform a bit. Here’s the current Signposts

OS Signpost 1 Title: The Past: Discovering Ancient Secrets

MC Signpost 1 Title: Playing a Role: Emulating the Role of “the Good Son” and Hiding His Own Pain

IC Signpost 1 Title: Understanding: Being Able to Understand Quickly Through Feeling (that he’ll need Loki’s help)
RS Signpost 1 Title: Impulsive Responses: Reacting Spontaneously

OS Signpost 2 Title: How Things Are Changing
OS Signpost 2, Scene 1: Knowledge: Failure to take the knowledge of the relic seriously results in a much beloved by all character being murdered (the Prof)
OS Signpost 2, Scene 2: Ability: TDE has the ability to hunt down and murder incarnates. He kills an incarnate whom people were relying upon - perhaps the guy who tells Boone not to get Loki (see Desire)
OS Signpost 2, Scene 3: Desire: Boone’s faith in Luke makes Boone an outcast among the other Aesir and Vanir since they are afraid to be too close to Loki
OS Signpost 2, Scene 4: Thought: Boone realizes that there is a spy working for TDE among the Aesir or Vanir. He doesn’t know who to trust.

MC Signpost 2 Title: Changing One’s Nature
MC Signpost 2, Scene 1: Fact: Luke must accept that he is Loki, but he takes that to mean that he can’t trust himself
MC Signpost 2, Scene 2: Security: Luke says goodbye to Tommy, his step-dad, knowing that Tommy would only be in danger if they stayed together
MC Signpost 2, Scene 3: Threat: As Luke begins training, he realizes that the other Aesir and Vanir are threatened by him. This makes it difficult for him to get a training partner.
MC Signpost 2, Scene 4: Fantasy: Tommy introduces the wyrd to Luke, but Luke can’t access it

IC Signpost 2 Title:
IC Signpost 2, Scene 1: Obtaining as it relates to Wisdom:
IC Signpost 2, Scene 2: Obtaining as it relates to Skill:
IC Signpost 2, Scene 3: Obtaining as it relates to Experience:
IC Signpost 2, Scene 4: Obtaining as it relates to Enlightenment:

Do you have any suggestions for the IC Signpost PSR scene illustrations? Preferably things that are significant, irreversible, and failures, such that the only way to move forward is to change direction?

#36

Um. Hmm. You might not have realized it, but changing the Domains is a really big deal.

Regarding the OS in Situation (Universe) vs. Activity (Physics), the best way to look at is:

Is there something stuck that needs to be unstuck? (Universe)
Or is there something going on that needs to stop? (Physics)

In your story it seems pretty clear that TDE murdering the teenagers is the problematic activity going on that needs to come to an end. They have to stop TDE.

Furthermore, your story’s also super clear on the Obtaining Goal and OS Concern. TDE steals the artifact and uses it hunt down and kill incarnates, the goodguys try to find TDE and try to rescue the incarnates (help them escape TDE), and they try to recover the artifact … and as a bonus, there’s the conflict over who’s going to win Loki to their side.

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#37

I totally agree with what you’re saying here. The thing is that the PSR variations are much more straightforward in the new story form and offer things I hadn’t thought about. For example, when we discussed the novel in that other thread, I mentioned that there was a spy among the NG who was working for TDE. The new story form has a PSR variation OS Signpost 2: How Things Are Changing — Thought which provides a good place early on to introduce the idea of the spy.

I was kinda working on a theory that the PSR Variations would be easier to work with if the story form was the correct one.

#38

In my experience, this is kinda right.

Do you want to have the right storyform? Yes-ish. Waaaay more important is Have I thought really hard and tried to answer the questions to the best of my ability?

The first story I wrote after I had a working ability of Dramatica was the result of 27 attempts at storyforming it, and then a draft. And then realizing that I had flopped the MC and IC domains – as in, I hadn’t even been on top of things enough to recognize that my MC was a Be-er and not a Do-er. That’s some pretty high-level error-making right there.

But, the story I wrote conformed to a storyform regardless. Like, nailed it. Ultimately, this helped me move forward with my understanding. Plus, side bonus, it proved the superiority of our storytelling brain over our gray-matter understanding of theory. When writing, I failed to screw up my story by jamming it into the wrong storyform.

Using the wrong PSR will not matter at all at this stage of the game. You are using it to generate ideas and build your story and all of that is entirely necessary. So go for it.

All of this is to say that a nasty side effect of plunging into Dramatica is suddenly doubting our intuition. And, while I get the urge to use the PSR (because it helps develop scenes, and scenes are something we can hold in our mind easily) it is the longest path to understanding Dramatica.

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#39

So, what’s the shortest path?

#40

People will disagree with me here, and that’s because different people have different needs or latch onto different things.

I think the crucial first steps are learning how to put throughlines into domains and understanding how the MC and the Protagonist are different. Next step, understanding how to make the ending clear. Then I think you have to learn how to make the IC effective.

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