Sorry to hear you’re under the weather. Hope it’s nothing serious.
Would you like to divide the work so we don’t overlap?
Get well soon.
Nah. We’ll probably come up with different answers anyway, which will make more fodder for discussion.
Got it. (typing this to hit the 20 min…)
Sorry. I need to sit down and think with this on my laptop. Hard to expand thoughts on my 4s👓. I might do one at a time. Not as ambitious as you. Plus I need feedback. I will work on that regarding your story points.
Here are some early quotes on MC and his Issues:
jhull said:
How about Main Character? And since you have to write at least 20 characters here…what would you say that Main Character’s personal issues are?
Story Point
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Genre Points
Resolve= Change:
Captain Kirk changes his essential nature while attempting to resolve the problem.
Kirk is out of balance at the beginning. Bones: “Other people have birthdays. Why are we treating yours like a funeral?” the issue is age and at the end Bones asks, “How do you feel Jim?” Kirk replies, “Young. I feel young.” Kirk was resolved at the beginning that his adventuring life was over and at the end he feels like it is just beginning. Rebirth. CHANGE
Story Point
—————
Genre Points
Growth= Stop:
regarding Captain Kirk, the audience is waiting for something to end. Kirk’s problem is caused by too much Avoidance. He is bullheaded in sticking with the inappropriate approach of not pursuing and comes off as aggressively obstinate. Kirk needs to stop his denial as well, his denial of his true purpose or destiny as Captain of the Enterprise.
Story Point
—————
Genre Points
Approach= Do-er:
Captain Kirk looks for a physical solution to his problems as evidenced by his solution to the Kobayashi Maru test; rather than accept that he can’t win, he changes the test so he can. Kirk is a man of action who shoots his way out of any problem.
Story Points
Plot Points
MC>Signpost 4> illustrates “what has already happened” (The Past) and is explored in terms of State of Being, Situation, Circumstances, and Sense of Self. Captain Kirk comes to terms with his past in his perception of himself(sense of self) and his true nature(state of being). Kirk feels very emotional about being part of the Enterprise and his friend Spock with whom he has just come face-to-face with death and laid him to rest (circumstances) and he finds himself as Captain of the Enterprise again full of life and youthful sense of adventure (situation).
Has this analysis been completed, or are there other points? I never realized this conversation was going on, so I want to post something in case further discussion takes place. FYI to whomever, just reading when this discussion began did not give me notifications of new posts, ongoing. After this I’ll post something to interesting topics, at the beginning.
Yes, the analysis has been completed. The only things to be added here would be additional story-encoding for the storyform we discovered. Additional questions can be posted under a separate topic.
You can also go down to the bottom of every topic and change how you want to be notified. That’s what I do.
Busy on a project at the moment. Hope to finish my encoding in the near future.
Oh, and Jim, for OS Solution: Avoidance, how about these? Spock doesn’t inform anyone that he’s going down to engineering. Spock avoids a confrontation with Bones. Scotty doesn’t stop Spock from carrying out his suicide endeavour. The enterprise jumps to warp speed and avoids the blast radius of the genesis device.
So, the elemental quads of Wrath of Khan and Star Trek (2009) are the same for each throughline? And apart from the MC Resolve and OS Problem, the storyform is the same?
I don’t know if this is just because Kirk and Spock’s characters simply lend themselves to these or because the writers of 2009 really weren’t comfortable with deviating too far from their main inspiration. Wrath of Khan is written all over 2009 and Into Darkness even more clearly.
This isn’t to attack the writers, it’s just interesting to me to know what you can do when you have to work with established characters, make them the main characters and still have a grand story argument story.
(EDIT: Here just a link to the storyform comparisons I’ve made: Link Star Trek is at the end of the document.)
Hello,
Took some time off to continue with the appreciation. Here is the MC.
MAIN CHARACTER
Domain: Situation (a situation or environment is the realm of Kirk’s personal journey and growth):
Kirk is a starfleet admiral who is confronted with the aging process.
Concern: The Future (what will happen or what will be is the issue or issues held in greatest importance by Kirk):
Kirk: “Galloping through the cosmos is a game for the young, Doctor.” (7min45sec)
Kirk is faced with a sedentary future where, after a day’s work at the office, he has nowhere else to go but home; that his time has passed.
When Kirk thanks Spock for the birthday gift, Spock answers, “I’m aware of your fondness for antiques.” A few seconds later, the PA system calls out, “Captain Spock, Captain Spock, space shuttle leaving in twenty minutes.” Kirk stares at Spock with envy, “Where are you off to now?” Spock answers, “The Enterprise. And you?” Kirk sighs, “Home.” (8min45sec)
Issue: Delay (putting off until later is Kirk’s personal thematic focus, topic, or value standard):
Kirk is hiding, as Bones states, from himself. (11min)
Counterpoint: Choice (making a decision is the thematic opposite to the area of Kirk’s greatest sensitivity):
Unable to resist, Kirk accepts Spock’s offer and takes command of the Enterprise when adventure calls.
Thematic Conflict: (the thematic comparison within Kirk as it balances Delay against Choice):
Kirk accepts to go on a mission, but hesitates before accepting the captain’s chair. When they come face to face with the Reliant, Kirk hesitates raising shields, even though he knows the Reliant’s claims of a systems malfunction are false.
Problem: Pursuit (the drive to seek after is the source of Kirk’s drive; the source of Kirk’s problems):
Khan wants to kill Kirk.
Solution: Avoidance (stepping around, preventing or escaping from a problem is what is needed to truly satisfy Kirk’s drive; the solution to Kirk’s problems):
Kirk manages to avoid being killed by Khan.
Symptom: Support (indirect assistance given to another’s efforts is the area or item Kirk believes the problem to be):
Khan has others do his dirty work for him.
Response: Oppose (an indirect detraction from another’s effort is the response of Kirk to his apparent problems):
Kirk taunts Khan to confront him in face to face, “Khan, you bloodsucker! You’re going to have to do your own dirty work from now on. Do you hear me? Do you?!”
Unique Ability: Openness (willingness to reevaluate is the quality that makes Kirk uniquely qualified to resolve the story’s problem):
Kirk is open to listening to other people’s advice, from both friends, colleagues and lower ranking officers.
Critical Flaw: Denial (the refusal to admit to oneself or others that a previously held view is no longer true is the quality that inhibits or undermines Kirk’s effectiveness, specifically his Unique Ability):
After they manage to lower the Reliant’s shields and fire on them, Sulu states to Kirk, “Sir, you did it!” Kirk responds, “I did nothing. Except get caught with my breeches down. I must be getting senile.” Kirk refuses to accept that he’s too old to run a starship.
Benchmark: How Things are Changing (the way things are going is the standard by which Kirk’s degree of growth is indicated):
As the story progresses, more and more of Kirk’s crew members die and his ship takes one beating after another as what started out as a pristine ship becomes tattered and eventually ceases to function, preventing them from escaping the genesis wave.
Am struggling with the Central Plot Points though, not sure what to make of them or how to encode it. Could someone please help, or at least give suggestions? This is what I have so far, but I’m not sure if I’m getting it right.
CENTRAL PLOT POINTS:
Goal: Obtaining (achieving or possessing something is the central “objective” of the Overall Story):
The fate of Admiral Kirk. Will he die, or be reborn? Khan wants Kirk dead. Spock wants his friend to take back the captain’s chair. Everyone wants control of the genesis device, to hold the power of life.
Consequence: Changing One’s Nature (transforming one’s nature is the result of failing to achieve the goal):
If Kirk fails, he and his crew dies. If Khan fails to kill Kirk, he will lose the upper hand and risk becoming a fugitive, hunted by the federation.
Cost: Innermost Desires (basic drives and desires is the prices that must be paid on the way to the goal):
Kirk wants to command the Enterprise, but its captain dies in the process. Khan wants revenge. Kirk must lose his desire to be in the captain’s chair.
Dividend: The Future (what will happen or what will be is the benefits enjoyed on the way to the goal):
Requirements: Doing (engaging in a physical activity is the necessary precursors to achieving the goal):
Prerequisites: Playing a Role (temporarily adopting a lifestyle is the steps or items needed to meet the requirements):
Preconditions: Impulsive Responses (innate responses is restrictions imposed on the effort to reach the goal):
Forewarnings: How Things are Changing (the way things are going is the foreshadowing events that indicate the approach of the consequence):
And here are a few revisions to the OS. Here again, the Counterpoint and Thematic Conflict I’ve left blank as I’m not sure how best to proceed…
OVERALL STORY
Domain: Activity: a space battle
Concern: Obtaining (an activity or endeavor is the general area in which the Overall Story’s problem resides):
The super humans seek to break free from exile. Their leader seeks revenge for the death of his wife by killing the man who cast them on the dying planet in the first place. The scientists seek to create habitable worlds for the federation. The cadets seek to earn the approval of their superiors and a place on a starship.
Issue: Self Interest (achieving or possessing something is the area of shared concern in the Overall Story):
Everyone in the story is interested in fulfilling their personal needs. Admiral Kirk wants to run a starship and feel good about himself. The leader of the super humans wants the satisfaction of seeing his life long enemy dead. The science team wants to find a suitable planet to test their device on. The cadets want to move up in starfleet ranks.
Counterpoint: Morality (doing or being based on what is best for others is the Overall Story’s thematic rebuttal):
Thematic Conflict: (the Overall Story’s thematic comparison as it balances Self Interest against Morality):
Problem: Pursuit (the drive to seek after is the source of the Overall Story’s difficulties):
The science team insists on starfleet finding a suitable planet devoid of any life and will not rest until they succeed, leading two officers to run into their mortal enemy. The leader of the super humans seeks to find his life long enemy and ends up having to kill himself in the attempt. The engineering cadet holds his post while under attack and ends up dying because of it. The science team maintains the location of their research a secret and end up being slaughtered.
Solution: Avoidance (stepping around, preventing or escaping from a problem is the actual remedy for the Overall Story’s problem(s)):
When the ship is in danger of being trapped in the genesis wave, the science officer avoids telling anyone on the bridge what his intentions are. In the engine room, the science officer avoids arguing with the chief medical officer over the logic of his choice and knocks him out. The crew of the starship survives the genesis blast by flying away (avoiding it’s destructive power).
Symptom: Control (directed, constrained is the principal symptom of the Overall Story’s problem(s)):
The leader of the super humans takes control of the two starfleet officers by placing mind control bugs into their brains. The science team believes that starfleet, under orders of Admiral Kirk, is going to take over control of their research. The super humans quickly take the upper hand in the initial space battle and eventually take control of the science research.
Response: Uncontrolled (directionless, unconstrained, free is the apparent remedy for the principal symptom of the Overall Story’s problem(s)):
The crew of the Enterprise forces the super humans to lose control of their ship’s shields, rendering them vulnerable to attack. Admiral Kirk beams inside the planet, not knowing if where he’s going will lead him anywhere. The Enterprise enters a nebula and renders all of starship instruments inoperable.
Catalyst: Approach (one’s methodology of doing or being is the kind of item which serves to push the Overall Story forward):
The super human’s ruthlessness leads them to learn about the science project. Using trickery saves the crew of the enterprise. The methodical approach of the science team, building their project step by step, saves them from imminent death when they beam inside the planet.
Inhibitor: Obligation (accepting a task or situation in exchange for someone’s earlier or potential favors is the kind of item which serves to impede the Overall Story’s progress):
The starfleet officers and scientists keep their mouths shut when they first encounter the super humans. The admiral visits the wounded after the battle and watches a cadet die. The super humans question their leader’s actions and suggest a wiser course of action, one that would be beneficial to all of them.
Benchmark: Doing (engaging in a physical activity is the standard by which progress is measured in the Overall Story):
The two starships duke it out, taking a beating at each confrontation.
Nice work. The problem, solution and symptom seem to about khan though. How is support a problem for Kirk.?
Not sure if I’m on the right track, but from DSE > Story Guide > Storyforming Complete > MC Problem > Usage of “Problem,” we find the following:
Even though the Problem is what is “wrong” with the Main Character according to the outside world, if the Main Character is actually correct in his motives and the world at large is mistaken, then this “Problem” is what drives the Main Character to set things right.
As I understand it, and what is probably more in line for an action / adventure story, the main character’s problem and the overall story problem are basically one and the same thing. The outside world in Wrath of Khan consists of Doctor Marcus, her science team and the crew of the Reliant who are stranded inside Regula (the Genesis cave) or on the surface of Ceti Alpha Five. Kirk’s problem is Khan’s pursuit to kill him while wreaking havoc throughout the galaxy.
Up until now, I think we were looking at the MC throughline in a touchy feely manner, focused on Kirk’s inner struggle of growing old, etc. I don’t know if that’s how others see it, and maybe it’s correct and I’m wrong, but I’d like to suggest that it’s incorrect. Growing old is not Kirk’s problem, Khan is.
I’d like to suggest the whole “growing old” issue belongs to the RS throughline, with Spock at the helm as IC, but with Bones and to a certain extent Scotty, Sulu and Uhura playing second fiddle, “Wouldn’t it be better to put an experienced crew on board the Enterprise?” All of them seem to agree with that point of view, including Spock.
Real quickly (haven’t read the whole thing), but Kirk’s Throughline should probably be about his issues with growing old. The Problem and Solution sound more like Overall Story. There probably should be something about him pursuing the fun and carefree life of a Starfleet Captain (chasing after his youth, etc.) and then at the end he’s actually avoiding that…(Kobiyashi Maru will tie into this thematically – chasing after a solution to cheat life when in reality you can’t avoid it…that sort of thing)
Understood. Guess I was misinterpreting the usage terminology. Will do more this coming week-end. Might be best to do the top parts of each througline first, then dive deeper and finish the rest after they’ve been reviewed by everyone.