TV Tropes and Dramatica

writing
#1

This is picking up a year-old idea, but yesterday I came across the TV TROPES website, in particular this genre-based one: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UrbanFantasyTropes

As I’ve been studying this genre in detail, with all the links, I’m hearing some of the “Trends” that we see tied with Genre on Subtext.

The monster motif mentioned above is mentioned as the Big Bad https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BigBad

But I’m wondering if the Tropes have tapped into the combination of Trend + storyform, and if so, if the different elements have a match-up to Dramatica theory.

Listen to this quote

For a simple, archetypal example, let’s assume that the idea to believe in is Humans Are Good/Rousseau Was Right. In idealistic series, those who believed it got lots of friends and a Happy Ending (therefore, Right Makes Might), while cynical series are Crapsack Worlds where those who believed it got ruthlessly bullied by everyone else (therefore, Might Makes Right). Of course, the definitions of “Right” and “Crapsack” in the above can technically mean whatever one wants them to mean. (source, --the original has links to the tropes.–)

That seems like the way Dramatica predicts elements.

I’m just wondering if these tropes are just describing the same thing Dramatica has identified. And it crossed my mind that if it is, it could be the transition needed to help fuel the difference/transition between storyform and story-writing.

Any comments? Does anyone use this tv-trope site to guide their work?

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#2

Unravelling the Uselessness of the Trope

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#3

I may use it for Storytelling purposes, if I feel like something seems cliche or “played [too] straight” (as that site uses the term). The main purpose in that would be to see what does exist to find something of a fresh take.* However, I immediately dismissed using tropes for structure, as they seemed too flat to be useful in that sense. Jim’s article, which I haven’t actually seen until today, pretty well covers why. I had come to similar conclusions beforehand.

As an aside: The few tropes I have seen related to structure are at the level of Aristotelian theory or the Hero’s Journey. They added nothing to what I knew before Dramatica, and for me the theory, program, and the counterpart app of Subtext are just far more useful for that kind of work.

*I mean, this is no substitute for reading and watching a lot of stories, but it is a tool.

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#4

Whew!

I was finding myself becoming cynical, as you wrote on the linked article"

This idea that we repeat and remix strikes the soul of a potential artist with cataclysmic cynicism. Why bother creating if it entails replicating the past? Depression ensues.

And yet I have one issue about this.

I know the narrative is driven by Dramatica issues, and as such, there will be certain things for certain along the way–like the driver between signposts, etc. Some call these inciting incident or dark night, etc.
But I heard that certain things are looked for in order to sell a manuscript. Flipping open to page 10 for inciting incident, for example). If tropes are required, or assumed, how will that affect sales?

It’s fine to prefer Dramatica theory as a writer, but do you find, @jhull, that Dramatica stories done right are actually PREFERRED by the one who picks it up? As they say, he who pays the piper calls the tune.

That said, I’ve never been one to bend to things just because they’re popular.

So, a related question, if your story doesn’t fit the genre, is it that genre? Genre seems to be about tropes. Maybe the bad guy has a Control problem or an Inertia problem. But there’s a Big Bad if it’s Action Adventure.

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#5

Unfortunately, I can’t answer the one about sales. That’s a good question, though, and I’d like to an “insider” perspective on it.

As to this question, I think that again points out why tropes and genres aren’t really that useful:

“But, there’s a Big Bad if it’s Action Adventure”. No, there isn’t, and let me explain why. That is only subjectively true. To me, it is completely and utterly false. The belief in it is largely the reason that I can’t stand most Action/Adventure stories. It is wholly possible to have what one would perceive as an Action/Adventure story without what is called the Big Bad*. I prefer such stories. They do exist, but due to the perception that such a statement is necessarily true, stories that go against it are darn near impossible to find.**

The other problem with this type of classification is that there are so many stories that straddle the arbitrary line that must be drawn by the classifier, due to looking at the cover of the story, rather than the content, the face value rather than the argument. In Dramatica terms, the Storytelling rather than the Storyform.

To put the two paragraphs above into context, I loved the Disney movie Bolt. I personally would argue that it is an Action/Adventure movie, but it certainly does not have a Big Bad in the sense that the trope would require. Others would argue against me and say that it isn’t even an Action/Adventure. Netflix classifies it as Comedy, which I can see, and Amazon doesn’t even appear to try to classify it.

To take another example, it’s extremely debatable as to whether Captain America: Civil War has a traditional Big Bad. Even with Zemo working to break up the Avengers, and the government trying to get the signatures to limit the freedom of the superheroes, I don’t perceive either of these as the Big Bad per the trope definition. Some other person might, and they may feel free to do so, but I don’t.

In both cases, the question boils down to where the arbitrary line of separation is drawn in each of our minds. Thus, if a story doesn’t “fit” the genre (lower-case), well it might still be that genre. It’s not a useful classification for figuring out what type of story is being presented, as much as it is in determining what kind of world to imagine visiting for the night.

*In terms of Storytelling, it gives the writer a relatively lazy (to me) way to source so-called bad guys for the so-called good guys to face. It can work well, but I haven’t seen it work well recently, except when lampshaded for comedic effect, or when the focus is on the individual characters and their relationships instead of “saving the world”…

**It’s also likely the reason most of these stories source conflict from Desires. (Reference: Subtext.)

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#6

First off, if you figure out a way to guarantee sales please report back here with your discovery!

I can only speak from experience, but EVERYTHING I’ve worked on in a professional capacity has never come back with extensive notes—nothing that would require a complete rewrite.

The only comment from the head of Disney TV at the time we sold Tangled was “can we make her hair magical?”—which, as you know, has nothing to do with structure.

Now, actually going through with the sale and navigating the waters of people’s personal preferences, their needs for production slates, and changes in the weather…not sure if a trope is going to help with that.

Tropes have no objective definition to them—they shift and morph for each person. One person’s Big Bad is another’s Shadow Enemy (or whatever non-sensical terms they’ve come up with). Why would you want to try and hit a subjective target?

How do you aim at opinion?

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#7

Thanks everyone! Great discussion, clearing up my misunderstandings. Perhaps tropes are trying to understand the patterns we see in story, but labeling it backwards.

I kid you not, @Hunter, @jhull, I picked up a box set of sci-fi on a whim, and the first line of test reads:

Just another day in space, en route to visit a wizard of space and time. As one does when one is saving the world from the Big Bad.

I was not amused. Felt like the story sold out for popularity.

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#8

You need to take a pic of that and post it here! The horror!!

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#9

BigBad.png800×403 68.7 KB

As I began reading (skimming, it ended up) the start of each of the books, it seemed to me that they’d actually decided to ALL refer to the TV tropes pages to make the Box Set of 13 books just what the audience wanted.

It worked for me. Persuaded me it was boring and ho-hum and not worth my time. @Lakis 's book, on the other hand, didn’t let me go till I finished at 2am. And, by the way, I can’t trope his book.

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#10

Oh yeah. I meant to warn you about that! The same thing happened to me.

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