YA Supernatural Novel, help and guidance please

writing
#41

I have broken my foot on both sides of my ankle. In addition, I have what’s called a Lizfranc injury. In short, I’ll need surgery on my foot and based on my current understanding (which might be wrong), I’ll have to stay on my feet for six weeks afterwards. I will be seeing the orthopedic surgeon who will be doing the surgery tomorrow.

I’m saying this because I want to set a deadline to have my novel finished by the time I’m able to get back on my feet. Nothing like being held captive in order to get some work done!

I’ve always prided myself on my ability to write scenes, but the ability to string those scenes into a longer story is NOT my strong suit. I’d be really grateful for any help getting the story form, the signposts, the Plot Sequence, and Instant Dramatica done reasonably soon so that I’m able to get writing. I’ll take any help you can give.

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#42

Sure!

Of course, we have to sort of pull the story form out of your ideas (some of them likely still subconscious ideas) to get it right, but we can definitely help with that.

Also, I don’t think you necessarily need all that stuff to get started writing. But at least penciling in the signposts is probably a good idea, in order to keep you on track with the whole story’s narrative. (Though I do think just having a storyform – knowing the MC is a Change character while the IC is Steadfast, what the OS Solution and Goal and Outcome are, etc. will help you string things together into a coherent narrative.)

Sorry to hear about the injury, hope the surgery goes well. (You can tell I’m a writer when a small, sadistic part of me feels slightly jealous at your foot injury and the entailing writing time!)

#43

Avoidance and Pursuit look interesting for the OS

If we stay with IC Issue: Preconception, then the following become illegal.
Avoidance and/or Pursuit for OS or MC
Faith and/or Disbelief for MC
Conscience for MC Problem/Solution/Symptom/Response

If we go with OS Problem Avoidance or Pursuit, then the following becomes illegal
IC Issue: Preconception
Faith and/or Disbelief for MC
Conscience for MC Problem/Solution/Symptom/Response

#44

maybe the relationship is avoiding honesty between them

Thanks, great idea!

#45

:laughing: Dude, I can so relate!

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#46

I’m in the same boat as Mike. Not sure if I should hope you get well soon or hope you have enough time to write your book. Let me know what help, if any, I can be and I’ll see what I can do.

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#47

Thinking about the Antagonist (that’s the Dark Elf in this book, right?), what’s driving him to track down and kill the incarnates? What’s really motivating him?
Can you think of anything that causes difficulties for the Dark Elf?

Was the archaeologist murdered during the theft of the prophecy-shield? (I’m thinking that theft is probably the event that kicks off the story, the First Story Driver.)

You might want to try using the Theme Browser to do your storyforming now. (On the PC version you can check off “Allow storyform changes” in the little dropdown in the bottom; not sure what it looks if you have Mac.) It really helps to look at the quads and see how they work together, knowing that since you have a Change MC:

  1. the MC Problem/Solution will be the same elements as the OS Problem/Solution
  2. the IC Symptom/Response will be the same elements as the OS Symptom/Response

Because of #1, it may help to consider an element for the MC Problem and OS Problem at the same time. For example, a lot of what you’ve written above fits with an MC Problem of Disbelief (disbelieving his own self-worth, denying his divine identity / destiny). But can you think of any way all the OS characters are driven by Disbelief? Are other incarnates skeptical of their own abilities and identities? Do the others disagree with Baldur’s plan out of disbelief (“that’s never going to work”) etc.?

Then you can try that same exercise with other elements that might work like Avoidance and Pursuit. (For now, I’d say ignore the choice of Issues – pretend all the Issues are still in play unless you’re certain one isn’t right.)

#48

Chris Huntley states that, if you are going to use the Plot Sequence Report, then you should not look at the Theme Browser. Here

I think I’d like to use the Plot Sequence Report.

#49

In that thread, Chris is not saying not to use the Theme Browser to do the storyforming. What he means is, if you use the Plot Sequence Report when designing your scenes and sequences, you need to use its arrangement rather than what is shown in the Theme Browser. Note the bolded words:

If you want to use the Plot Sequence Report to build thematic scenes, then DO NOT use the Theme Browser.

For example, the PSR might say that OS Act 2 explores Obtaining in terms of Permission, Need, Expediency, and Deficiency – this is the twisted, subjective view particular to your story. Whereas the Theme Browser will always show Attitude, Approach, Self Interest, and Morality under Obtaining. The subjective view from the PSR is often very useful to writers because it shows things more from the characters’ perspective, helping you to get ideas for the story more from that “inside” view.

BUT you can still use the Theme Browser to do the actual storyforming (selecting story points) – it doesn’t matter whether you use that or the Story Engine Settings or the Query System or even (as some experts can) do it mostly in your head … the result will be the same.

#50

All that said, the Theme Browser can be overwhelming at first, so definitely don’t feel you have to use it.

What did you think about OS Problem of Disbelief?

If we had to settle on something immediately, I would guess at OS & MC Problem being Avoidance, since that does seem to fit what you have in both of those throughlines. (The MC could be avoiding his godhood, not owning up to it, escaping his destiny, etc. Meanwhile, in the OS, the antagonist is preventing the incarnates from coming into their powers.) The Issues all work pretty well with this too (Morality, Preconception, and Denial would all still be represented in OS, IC, and MC respectively as counterpoints). You’d have to see how well a Solution of Pursuit works, though, and also whether the arrangement of Symptom & Response makes sense.

#51

If we go with OS Problem: Disbelief and IC Issue: Preconception, then Resolve must be Steadfast. I don’t think that really works for this story.

#52

Right, but I think it would be okay to “unselect” Preconception as the IC Issue at this point. The work we did on Issues was useful but I don’t think it should supersede our Problem level analysis.

Openness in particular might work well as IC Issue, which you had originally stated. (If the OS & MC Problem are Disbelief, the IC Issue would be Choice – not sure what you think of that.)

Anyway, when I was asking about OS Problem of Disbelief, what I meant was, does that fit any of your ideas? Are all of the characters in the overall story somehow driven by skepticism or disbelief*, and it causes them problems? (The Matrix is a great example of OS & MC Problem Disbelief.) I couldn’t really see that in any of your examples, but I didn’t want to dismiss it out of hand.

* Keep in mind they could be driven by others’ disbelief, or by a lack of disbelief – those still fit Disbelief in Dramatica.

#53

One thing you can do is start a new storyform file and select Change, Be-er, Optionlock, and OS Concern Obtaining. I’m not sure on your Driver yet but it’s probably Action (the theft and murder). Also not sure what you decided on whether Luke/Loki is Linear or Holistic (Linear would appeal more to YA boys, while still appealing to girls).

I’d say that’s all that we’ve decided for certain so far. (But don’t worry – despite that, we’re getting close. As soon as we can settle on the Problem for any throughline, we’ll basically be done!)

#54

One option worth considering is IC Problem: Temptation
If we go with that, then OS Problem can be Reconsider. Their problem is failing to properly reconsider Loki’s potential as an ally.

#55

With the OS Problem as Reconsider, on top of refusing to reconsider Loki as an ally, you would likely see lots of instances of people rethinking thinkgs, changing their minds or having trouble settling on a decision. And that would all be problematic (though they would focus on Logic instead: things being irrational or not making sense or being too coldly logical). Does that feel right?

Similarly, the MC Problem being Reconsider would look something like, he’s constantly reconsidering his role and his own worth, wavering back and forth maybe. The early scene with the Counselor, talking about his brother’s death, might show that he can’t really make up his mind about how he feels, something like that (as an example). But he would just want everyone to leave him alone (Symptom of Pursuit – everyone keeps trying to ‘fix’ him; Response of Avoid – leave me alone).

Does any of that feel right? How did you see the IC Problem of Temptation working? (I think I can see a couple examples from what you’ve already stated, but it’d be cool to get your take first)

EDIT: This storyform would be similar to The American President, which is the only analyzed story with an OS Problem of Reconsider. However, there are several with IC Problem of Temptation. See: http://dramatica.com/analysis/filter

#56

I assume there would also be cases where people had the clear opportunity to reconsider and chose not to.

It does make sense because I have two female characters I’ve been playing with including who kind of make an unofficial pair. One of them is a shape changer who deliberately never reconsiders anything. She symbolizes chaos. The other is an assassin who is always plotting and plotting and refining plots. She symbolizes order. Together, they represent reconsideration taken to the pro- and con- extremes.

Well, he’s willing to forego long term benefits for short term success. This is exemplified in his willingness to ignore the fact that Loki is going to kill him.

#57

Wow! That’s looking pretty good then.

Right, so he’s enticed by the immediate benefit Loki’s help provides, and he ignores the possible (preordained!) consequences of that, i.e. Loki betraying and killing him. That does sound a lot like Temptation! Hopefully giving into this is problematic for him in some way – and most important, it influences the MC.

I was also thinking of something else you wrote, about how he might fall in love later in the story and how that might tempt him away from his goals.

For a good test, can you see the Solution of Consider working to solve things in the Overall Story? And can Loki embrace something to do with Consideration in order to change his perspective and solve his personal problems? (assuming Judgment Good there)

Consider can run the gamut of thinking or deliberating about something, so it can include things like being considerate or inconsiderate of other people, ruminating on something, weighing pros and cons, etc. Even flirting with someone or something fits.

#58

Honestly, Consider is so wide open that I’d be hard pressed to come up with any example where it didn’t play a role.

#59

Fair enough. What you’d want to see is that the real root of what solves things is the Consideration itself, the way Trust (e.g. in the Force) solves things in Star Wars (1977). But it can be hard to see down to that level before you write the story, let alone when you’re new to Dramatica!

Another way to check the OS Problem is the Dramatica litmus test: if you took away everyone’s problematic Reconsidering and lack of Reconsidering, would there still be a problem in the overall story? (By take away I mean like you the Author, or God, just slices it wholesale out of the story.) e.g. is Reconsideration or its lack driving the murder of the incarnates somehow?

What about the MC? Would he still have difficult personal issues if you magically removed his Reconsidering or lack of Reconsidering?

More on the litmus test (applied to Domains and Concerns) here: https://narrativefirst.com/articles/understanding-the-personal-goal-of-your-main-character

Part of the reason I’m pushing so hard here is that it’s still hard to tell whether Reconsider/Consider might instead be Symptom/Response (or vice versa). e.g. if the shape changer always talks about how reconsidering is dumb, that might be a Symptom rather than the Problem.

#60

Here’s a short list of things that I really like and probably want to keep.

OS Concern: Obtaining
Outcome Success
Resolve: Change
Approach: Be-er
MC Issue: Closure
MC Unique Ability: Dream
MC Signpost 1: Memories
IC Problem: Temptation
Consequence: Changing One’s Nature
Cost: the Future

‘’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’’

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