YA Supernatural Novel, help and guidance please

writing
#1

I’m writing a YA novel with a male protagonist who is destined to help bring about the end of the world. The male protagonist wants to escape this destiny. He’s basically a good guy with a terrible destiny laid upon him.

I’ve got the following on my MC throughline

Problem: Disbelief
Solution: Faith
Symptom: Avoidance
Response: Pursuit
Unique Ability: Responsibility
Critical Flaw: Denial

If I set the Problem: Disbelief to “Disbelieves in his own self-worth,” then

Solution: Faith becomes “has faith in his own self-worth.”

Symptom:Avoidance becomes “avoids situations where he can be tested.”

Response: Pursuit becomes “”.

Unique Ability: Responsibility refers to his sense of responsibility which ultimately compels him into a situation where he can be tested (and, subsequently, start to gain faith in himself).

Critical Flaw: Denial is “Denial of his Divine identity and its critical role as the world comes to an end.”.

How is this looking to you (suggestions are welcomed) and do you have any suggestions for Response: Pursuit?

My April Bet step 2
#2

Im assuming you’re using Dramatica Protagonist here, which means he will be the one pursuing the Overall Story Goal. What goal is he pursuing with respect to the OS throughline? I ask because all we know of him currently is that he seems to want to avoid his destiny. Can you separate his MC throughline from the OS theoughline for us?

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#3

The Norse gods have come to Earth in the modern world. They are preparing for Ragnarok. They’ve been born on Earth as human infants to grow up to become leaders of men. They’ve not been born with their divine powers, but are to come into them when they become adults. Right now, they are young adults and some of them have come into their powers while most have not.
Boone (that is, Baldur) is living with a premier archaeologist at the Smithsonian Museum of Natural History. A recent prophecy has been discovered which can be used to reveal where these incarnates are on Earth and the antagonist has found and stolen this prophecy. He is using it to hunt down and murder the incarnates before they come into their power and knowledge of themselves as gods.
After the archaeologist is murdered, Boone goes on a quest to get Luke (that is, Loki) and see if he can help to stop the antagonist. They want to steal back the prophecy (which takes the form of a petrified wooden shield covered in runes). Luke is the protagonist. But, Loki is prophesied to not only turn against the gods, but to kill Baldur. Can Loki be trusted? Luke’s a good guy, but can he even trust himself when the full weight of his destiny asserts that he can’t?

What I’ve got in the OS is
Problem: Reconsider
Solution: Consider
Symptom: Avoidance
Response: Pursuit
Catalyst: Dream
Inhibitor: Obligation

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#4

Sounds awesome so far. But I need a timeout to catch up on my Norse Mythology.

Currently it sounds like your OS involves the Norse Gods (which I will refer to henceforth as NGs) coming to modern day earth. The NGs are being hunted down and murdered as they are preparing for Ragnarok. Luke/Loki’s role within this is about retaking the stolen prophecy/shield from the antagonist in order to stop the antagonist from murdering the NGs.

  1. Does that sound about right so far?
  2. What is the antagonist’s name?
  3. Is Ragnarok a good thing or bad (I’m thinking within the realm of your story, this would be seen as a good thing, but I’m not sure.)
  4. What do you see as the goal, or the scope, of this story. Is it about saving the NGs who will then bring about Ragnarok, or is the goal actually bringing about Ragnarok on the earth and saving the NGs is more of a step along the way? (Or something else entirely? Don’t let me put words in your mouth)
  5. Based on your OS problem quad, you see Mind as the source of inequity for everyone involved. Can you tell us what makes Mind/Fixed Attitudes problematic for all involved?
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#5

1.) Yes, it does

2.) Right now, I’m calling him “The Dark Elf.” I don’t have a better name for him, yet.

3.) It is inevitable. Whether it is good or not would depend on who wins. If the gods lose, it is a bad thing. If the gods win, it is, well, not exactly good, per se, (as most of the gods are destined to die in it), but not entirely a bad thing. It is a great big “reboot” button. For those who believe the world needs a reboot, it is a good thing.

4.) This story is the first in a series. The goal for it is to reclaim the prophecy and stop the Dark Elf. The role of the story within the overall series is to introduce a lot of things. Actual Ragnarok will take place in a later book. At the very end of the first story, Luke will destroy the prophecy, though why he does so won’t be clear until later. Also, it turns out that the BBEG isn’t the Dark Elf. The Dark Elf is a puppet. The BBEG is Ymir - the Lord of Elemental Ice, King of the Ice Giants. Ymir’s armies will be one of the forces fighting against the gods in Ragnarok.

5.) I have Fixed Attitude as the OS Domain. The problems stemming from it have to do with the characters’ identities as NG. They are outcasts looking in on the human condition or humans looking out on the gods. They carry special responsibilities (such as preparing for Ragnarok) and have special problems (such as having someone going around trying to murder them) which arise from them being part of a special group.

#6

Where do problems of fixed aspects of the mind come into play? How does being an outcast have to do with the mind? Or being part of a special group? Are being an outcast and being part of a special group sources of conflict for the OS characters? How are these the source of the problem for someone being hunted and murdered?

#7

Treat this as an aside to the conversation currently in progress. I just wanted to point out that it’s not necessary for the solution to use the same subject matter as the problem. It’s fine to have a Problem of Disbelief in self and a Solution of Faith in self, but you could also have a problem of Disbelief in self and solution of Faith in God, or Disbelief in self and Faith in humanity. Think of Luke Skywalker Testing himself, but Trusting in the force. Keeping that in mind might open up your storytelling possibilities.

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#8

One of the gists for “Fixed Attitude” is “Being in a special group.” I thought that referred to a state of mind that being in the group entailed. Its not so much being an outcast as it is the state of mind that being an outcast brought with it.

I believe you are asking how does being an outcast create significant problems for someone being hunted and murdered? I believe I can take one or two of the incarnates and put them on the run from the law. They fled when the Dark Elf arrived to murder them, so the Dark Elf murdered their families instead. Because the NG fled the same night, the NG is considered to be a suspect. He can’t just tell the cops that the Dark Elf did it, so he stays on the run from the cops. Because other NG are associated with him, they too are on the run from the cops.

#9

(read in best Johnny Carson voice) I did not know that.

There’s a gist for Universe/Situation I think of “being an outsider” or “being new” or something, so I was going that direction with it. But knowing it now, I can see a Fixed Attitude aspect to it.

Full disclosure, I’M NOT AN EXPERT AT ALL, but I felt like a lot of the story you were giving would be more external. I still mostly feel like that, but I don’t mean to tell you to change your storyform. That said…

If the NGs are all considered suspects or all considered armed and dangerous, or whatever, and that is >the source of their problems>, then I think it works great as a Fixed Attitude problem. But…

as is, this stuff about the Dark Elf feels to me like the source of “being considered a suspect”. I could be wrong, and it could just be a matter of how it’s handled. Like if the murdery parts aren’t the main concern of the story but somehow handled more as backstory, and being considered a suspect keeps the NGs from being able to recruit help to retrieve the prophecy, or something…I don’t know, I’m just pulling from the top of my head. I think there’s room to say the OS is in Fixed Attitude, but I don’t know that I’ve pulled it out of you just yet.

I’m surprised others haven’t jumped in and offered a view yet. Maybe I kind of hijacked the thread too early. Let’s give it some time and see who else has some guidance for you.

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#10

Too busy lately! But I agree with Greg, from what I’ve read it doesn’t sound like a Fixed Attitude OS, at least so far.

Always figure out the storyform from top to bottom, i.e. look at the Domain and Concern first, and make sure those represent the real source of the conflict, before going on to Issue and Problem (which should also, at their “zoomed in” level, also be the true sources of conflict).

#11

There is so much I need to learn about Dramatica. It is so confusing because the actual algorithm is kept hidden. I don’t know what affects what when and where and why.

I feel that the MC’s journey is largely internal. He starts off the story at the very beginning in juvenile detention talking to a counselor about the day he found his 7 year old brother’s dead body (the brother had fallen through the ice on a frozen lake right in front of the MC’s eyes). We discover later (mid-novel) that the MC had coaxed his brother out to get a ball that landed out there. The MC had thought that his brother was small enough and lite enough that the ice wouldn’t crack under him. The MC was 12 at the time. Now, the MC is facing the fact that he is destined to not only murder another person, but become evil. This is a pretty heavy internal journey and internal antagonist he has to deal with.

If the MC and IC journeys are internal, then the OS should be external.

Let’s run with that.

I created a new document. I assigned the two internal domains to the MC. I then assigned “Activity” to the OS. That gives me

OS Domain: Activity
MC Domain: Fixed Attitude
IC Domain: Situation
RS Domain: Manipulation

That all looks good. Dramatica also selects the following for me.

Growth: Start
Approach: Be-er

Growth: Start is puzzling to me. I don’t know what the MC is waiting for in his environment to start.

Some stuff that looks good includes
MC Signpost 1 Memories: The death of his brother and how it has impacted his family and himself
OS SIgnpost 1 either Gathering Information or Obtaining: The artifact

The two above give me
MC Signpost 2 Impulsive Responses: Not sure what to do with this yet

I’ll just pick the following out
OS Concern Obtaining: Trying to reclaim the petrified shield back

Dramatic picks out
MC Concern Innermost Desires Not sure what to do with this yet
IC Concern The Future: Victory in Ragnarok is what the IC is pursuing. He’s very, very concerned about the Future. So, this looks good, too.
RS Concern Changing One’s Nature: This looks good as well.

So, to pick a few more out, I’ll go with
MC Issue either Denial or Closure: Denial because he is engaged in self-denial and closure because he has never really had closure concerning his brother’s death
IC Issue Openness: Because he is open to getting the MC’s help despite everyone warning him not to
MC Problem Avoidance: Because he’s afraid of what he might do

Dramatica fills in a lot now. I feel like I should probably take the time to justify what Dramatica has given me.

#12

Don’t worry about the algorithms. All the algorithm’s do is describe how things are connected on the Dramatica table. Melanie and Chris already spent a lot of time figuring that out for us. Why try to recreate the wheel? For now, just trust Dramatica. The more you use it, the more you’ll figure out what everything does. The important part for now is the human problem solving process which you have access to.

Also, don’t get discouraged by how difficult Dramatica can be. Used properly, I can see Dramatica being one of the most powerful ideas I’ve had the privilege to come across, especially in the way it’s changed the way I view and deal with day to day problems.

#13

It’s awesome that you can see so much of your story cropping up when you look at various points, but if you want we can take it slow and try to understand each point as we go. If you want to do that, I’d say let’s keep looking at the OS until we have a clear vision of at least the Domain and Concern, like Mike said. If you want to do that, continue on. If not, feel free to steer the conversation wherever you need it to go!

If you’re in agreement that the OS is in an external quad, that’s great. (note: I didn’t intend to tell you any storypoint you went with was right or wrong or where I thought it should go because I don’t want to give you a storyform you don’t want. If you really like the idea of a Fixed Attitude OS we can keep working toward that) What are the problems that everyone is dealing with? From previous posts it sounds like the problems might be that the prophecy has been stolen, or that the NGs are being hunted and murdered by the TDE. Or the problems might be closer to something like trying to find and destroy the prophecy. Some of those are more State-like and others more Process-like, I think. (Another note, I’m not trying to steer you away from OS in Activity, here. Just trying to make sure we see how and why the OS would be in it if that’s what you go with. Knowing the types of Activities will help at the Concern level anyway).

#14

laughs I already did the new story with OS Activity, but let’s back up and do it one step at a time.

Okay, OS Domain: Activity. I like this because my professional goal is to get more YA boys reading. I am intentionally targeting my novels towards YA boys. They are going to like OS Domain: Activity more than OS Domain: Fixed Attitude I believe. Also, an internal OS throughline kinda scares me because I’m afraid that my characters will get maudlin. An external OS also gives me a definitive victory at the end of the novel. Did they recapture the shield and stop the Dark Elf? Yes! There’s no “well, …maybe.” And, finally, OS Domain: Activity permits me to select OS Concern: Obtaining. The story is about recapturing the prophecy and stopping the Dark Elf. So, that works out great.

Now, where I get stuck is on the Issue. When I created the storyform with OS: Activity, Dramatica gave me Issue: Self-Interest. I just can’t see what to do with that.

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#15

First, if you’re comfortable with the new storyform, that’s fine. I just love discussing Dramatica and working through the story points and was just letting you know I’m willing to work through it a step at a time if you need it (again, I’m not an expert so this is about me learning Dramatica as much as it is about helping…might say it’s in my own Self-Interest!) Second, don’t let internal domains scare you. If I remember correctly, Home Alone has OS and MC internal domains and what boys don’t love that story?

Awesome! That tells me a lot about the direction of the story. The OS characters aren’t mainly looking at that the prophecy is missing or that they are being targeted for murder. Instead, they’re looking at how finding and retrieving and returning or destroying the prophecy are problems. Maybe looking for the prophecy leads to the NGs getting into fights with TDE, and maybe TDE is having problems translating the prophecy or something.

How is everyone concerned with putting themselves before others? Remember, this is the theme level which places a value judgment on the terms at play. Is self-interest seen as a good or a bad thing? Why is TDE trying to kill the NGs and how is this in his best interest? Is bringing about Ragnarok in the best interest of the NGs over the interest of, say, the humans that will be destroyed in the battles and renewing of the earth and all that Ragnarok entails?

#16

Oh! Hey! If the prophecy is leading TDE to the NGs so he can kill them, wouldn’t it be in their Self-Interest to find and destroy it rather than doing…something that would put someone else’s needs first?

#17

" I’m willing to work through it a step at a time if you need it " Oh, believe me, I need it!

“Oh! Hey! If the prophecy is leading TDE to the NGs so he can kill them, wouldn’t it be in their Self-Interest to find and destroy it rather than doing…something that would put someone else’s needs first?” Yes, I do believe you are right. Now, I need conflict. Not every NG believes in stopping what they are doing so that they can hunt down the artifact. They believe their self-interest would be better met doing something else. This can lead into the OS Problem of Avoidance.

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#18

Where might Morality fit in? what could they be doing to put someone elses interests over finding the prophecy and what could it be that would cause them problems with putting their own safety first? Are there humans in the story that really need immediate help? Is it going to be a problem for others if Ragnarok isn’t brought about as soon as possible?

Could the problem be that some have a lack of self interest? “We’re Norse gods! I’m not concerned about being hunted down, I welcome battle! Let the Dark Elf come!”-some NG right before getting a Dark Elf arrow to the temple!

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#19

Great work so far guys. I like the Obtaining Concern / Story Goal.

Also one thing to note, issues of Self Interest often appear as characters favoring their own way of going about things, that “my way or the highway” sort of deal that you see in films like The Last Jedi and Captain America: Civil War. Or even Pitch Perfect. :slight_smile:

I can also see Self Interest vs. Morality in this description of Ragnarok:

You’ve got some folks who think the reboot is in everyone’s best interest, and others who think they need to do whatever it takes to save the world from the reboot.

I really like the description and backstory you gave for the MC’s personal issues. It’s still difficult for me to tell whether he might be in Situation (e.g. if his personal issues stem from who/what he is, the fact that he’s destined for X, etc.), or indeed in Mind (if, as you suggested, the root of his personal issue is subconscious guilt and lack of closure, that kind of thing). Do you have a sense of whether he’s a Do-er or Be-er in regards to his personal issues? (note that can be difficult to answer, so it’s okay if you’re not sure)

I wonder, can you describe the IC more? How does he influence the MC?

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#20

I was thinking about that too. Maybe the Mind stuff is in the first story, but since Ragnarok doesn’t come until a later story, the destiny stuff might be in either a different story or part of a storyform that spans the series.

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