YA Supernatural Novel, help and guidance please

As I see it, TDE going after the relic was preceeded by TDE deciding to go after the relic, which was preceded by the act of discovering the relic at the dig site, which was preceded by the decision to dig at that site, which was preceeded by the act of writing a grant for money to dig at that site. We’ve got a chicken and egg situation here.

I believe what matters is “what is the trigger which got the hero engaged in this story.” I believe that trigger is Boone’s decision to get Luke’s help (or TDE’s decision to trap Boone and Luke together in this adventure).

Main Character Resolve: Change

Main Character Growth: Start

Main Character Approach: Be-er

Main Character Problem-Solving Style: Holistic

ABOUT YOUR PLOT

Story Driver: Decision

Story Limit: Optionlock

Story Outcome: Success

Story Judgment: Bad

Overall Story Name:

The Overall Story

Goal: Obtaining

Consequence: Changing One’s Nature

Requirements: Gathering Information

Forewarnings: Contemplation

As Luke becomes more Loki, he finds himself uncomfortably comfortable analyzing logical problems in which people die

Overall Story Signpost 1: Understanding

Overall Story Signpost 2: Obtaining

Overall Story Signpost 3: Gathering Information

Overall Story Signpost 4: Doing

Main Character Signpost 1: Memories

Main Character Signpost 2: Impulsive Responses

Main Character Signpost 3: Innermost Desires

Main Character Signpost 4: Contemplation

Influence Character Signpost 1: The Past

Influence Character Signpost 2: How Things are Changing

Influence Character Signpost 3: The Future

Influence Character Signpost 4: The Present

Relationship Name:

The Relationship Story

Relationship Signpost 1: Developing a Plan

Relationship Signpost 2: Playing a Role

Relationship Signpost 3: Changing One’s Nature

Relationship Signpost 4: Conceiving an Idea

ABOUT YOUR THEME

Overall Story Domain: Activity

Overall Story Concern: Obtaining

Overall Story Problem: Reconsider

Overall Story Issue: Approach

Approach is Neutral.

Overall Story Counterpoint: Attitude

Attitude is Neutral.

Main Character Issue: Closure

Closure is Neutral.

Main Character Counterpoint: Denial

Denial is Neutral.

Influence Character Issue: Openness

Openness is Neutral.

Influence Character Counterpoint: Preconception

Preconception is Neutral.

Relationship Issue: Rationalization

Rationalization is Neutral.

Relationship Counterpoint: Obligation

Obligation is Neutral.

KEY STORY POINTS

Overall Story Domain: Activity

Main Character Domain: Fixed Attitude

Influence Character Domain: Situation

Relationship Domain: Manipulation

Overall Story Concern: Obtaining

Main Character Concern: Innermost Desires

Influence Character Concern: The Future

Relationship Concern: Changing One’s Nature

Overall Story Problem: Reconsider

Overall Story Solution: Consider

Main Character Problem: Reconsider

Main Character Solution: Consider

Main Character Focus: Pursuit

Influence Character Problem: Temptation

Influence Character Solution: Conscience

Influence Character Resolve: Steadfast

Relationship Problem: Hinder

Relationship Solution: Help

Treatment with Structure Report for “The Long Winter”

Scene #1 - Prologue

The needs of a story determine the desirability of a prologue. The prologue can be used as a device to hook the audience’s attention; establish a certain aura (romantic, violent); provide backstory; foreshadow certain events.
HOW TO USE THIS STEP OUTLINE:
–This is a suggested structure, with all your story points and illustrations already woven. You may use it as is, or adapt it.
–The step titles and explanatory text present elements of conventional story structure with which you already may be familiar (see “Story Sources”).
–In the window below “This Scene Represents”, story points and illustrations show how Dramatica represents that conventional structure.
–Each step may represent a scene, or more than one scene.
–Add, Delete, or Move steps in the “Scene List” window.
–You may delete the title, explanatory text, and instructions in each step, once you understand them.
–However, it’s advisable to print the Story Treatment report with this text first, before deleting it. You may want to keep it (except for these instructions) in your reports to refer to when writing.
–With “Show Illustrations” checked, you can select some or all of the text in the “This Scene Represents” window, copy it, and paste it into the “What happens in this Step” window. This text forms your Story Treatment and prints in the “Story Treatment” report.
–Protagonist∞2Antagonist∞2Guardian∞2Emotion characters are woven throughout the story. Weave the other characters as and when needed.
–Archetypal characters have been created, ensuring that each character has a dramatic purpose in the story.
–For simplicity’s sake, the Main Character is also the Protagonist, making him∞2her a hero∞2ine character. Similarly, the Impact Character is Emotion. This need not be the case with all stories.

Referenced Story Points:
Plot Information: Forewarnings – Contemplation

Scene #2 - Chapter 1-Initial Situation

–A novel usually begins with some sort of temporal and∞2or spatial initial situation. The initial situation gives a description of a particular, sometimes emphasized prosperity. This prosperity serves as a contrasting background for the misfortune to follow.
From this situation stems the orders or advice to not interfere with this prosperity–to maintain the status quo.

Referenced Story Points:
Overall: Domain – Activity
Overall: Concern – Obtaining
Synopses: OS Backstory

Scene #3 - Chapter 1-Introduce Protagonist

–Introduce and establish protagonist’s point of view–the issues and concerns that shape the protagonist’s outlook.

Referenced Story Points:
MAIN CHARACTER (Protagonist): Description
MAIN CHARACTER (Protagonist): Role
MAIN CHARACTER (Protagonist): MAIN CHARACTER (Protagonist)'s Introduction
Main Character: Domain – Fixed Attitude
Main Character: Concern – Innermost Desires
Main Character: Problem – Reconsider
Main Character: Critical Flaw – Delay
Main Character: Signpost 1 – Memories

Scene #4 - Chapter 1-Absence

–One of the characters may absent her∞2himself from “home.” This may affect the initial situation, protagonist, or both. Examples:

  1. Parents leave for work, vacation, war
  2. Death
  3. Younger member of generation leaves
    The leave-taking of a key character prepares for the misfortune, creating an opportune moment for it.

Referenced Story Points:
Plot Information: Forewarnings – Contemplation

Scene #5 - Chapter 1-Status Quo Violated

–Advice or order to maintain status quo is violated.

Referenced Story Points:
Overall: Issue – Approach
Overall: Signpost 1 – Understanding

Scene #6 - Chapter 2-Introduce Antagonist

–Introduce antagonist. Her∞2his role is to disturb the peace; cause some misfortune, damage, or harm.

Referenced Story Points:
_Antagonist: Description
_Antagonist: Role
_Antagonist: Function
_Antagonist: _Antagonist’s Introduction
Overall: Problem – Reconsider

Scene #7 - Chapter 2-Antagonist Reconnaissance

–The antagonist makes an attempt at reconnaissance–checking out the situation. The antagonist receives information about her∞2his victim. The antagonist attempts to deceive victim in order to take possession of her∞2him or their belongings.

Referenced Story Points:
Overall: Benchmark – Gathering Information

Scene #8 - Chapter 2-Victim-Protagonist

–If the protagonist is a “victim” rather than “seeker”–s∞2he may submit to deception and thereby unwittingly help the antagonist.

  1. The protagonist agrees to the antagonist’s persuasions. S∞2he has violated an order or accepted a deceitful proposal.
  2. The protagonist unwittingly falls victim to some device (drugs, magic, hypnotism)-- OR other means, e.g., s∞2he suddenly falls asleep, wounds her∞2himself, etc. This facilitates the antagonist’s task.

Referenced Story Points:
Plot Information: Forewarnings – Contemplation

Scene #9 - Chapter 3-Protagonist and Story Problem

–The protagonist deals with some aspect of the story problem, for example, starts an investigation, enlists the help of others, etc. Establish more of the protagonist’s background that further shows her∞2his relationship to the story goal–what interest they may have or why they are best suited to pursue the goal.

Referenced Story Points:
Overall: Problem – Reconsider
Plot Information: Goal – Obtaining
Synopses: MC Backstory

Scene #10 - Chapter 3-Introduce Subplot

–Introduce character with whom the protagonist will have a relationship (romantic∞2buddy∞2parent∞2teacher∞2or the like). This character will have the most impact on the protagonist.

Referenced Story Points:
IMPACT CHARACTER (Emotion): Description
IMPACT CHARACTER (Emotion): Role
IMPACT CHARACTER (Emotion): Function
IMPACT CHARACTER (Emotion): IMPACT CHARACTER (Emotion)'s Introduction

Scene #11 - Chapter 4-Introduce Other Characters

–Establish secondary characters and their functions.

Referenced Story Points:
Synopses: Overall Characters

Scene #12 - Chapter 4-Subplot

–Explore relationship between protagonist and romantic lead∞2buddy∞2or the like.

Referenced Story Points:
Relationship: Domain – Manipulation
Relationship: Concern – Changing One’s Nature
Relationship: Problem – Hinder
Relationship: Signpost 1 – Developing a Plan

Scene #13 - Chapter 4-Complication

–The antagonist makes a decision or effects an action that causes harm or injury to a character. For example:

  1. The antagonist abducts a character
  2. The antagonist abducts powerful devices or material objects (e.g., bank manager seizes deed to protagonist’s property)
  3. The antagonist causes bodily injury or death
  4. The antagonist effects substitution
  5. The antagonist orders a murder to be committed
  6. The antagonist imprisons or detains a character
  7. The antagonist threatens forced matrimony
  8. The antagonist declares war

Referenced Story Points:
Character and Plot Dynamics: Driver – Decision
Overall: Catalyst – Morality

Scene #14 - Chapter 5-Protagonist Given Quest

–One character either lacks something or desires to have something, e.g.,

  1. Lack of a bride or groom
  2. Means of existence
    Misfortune or lack is made known; the protagonist is approached with a request or command; s∞2he is allowed to go or s∞2he is dispatched.

Referenced Story Points:
MAIN CHARACTER (Protagonist): Function
Plot Information: Goal – Obtaining

Scene #15 - Chapter 5-Protagonist Accepts Quest

–The protagonist agrees to the quest or decides upon some sort of counteraction.

Referenced Story Points:
Plot Information: Prerequisites – Conceiving an Idea
Main Character: Signpost 2 – Impulsive Responses

Scene #16 - Chapter 5-Protagonist Sets Out on Quest

–The departure is different for a “seeker-protagonist” than a “victim-protagonist.” The departure of a seeker-protagonist is exemplified by the pursuit of the goal. If the victim-protagonist is driven out, the narrative is developed along the route of the victim protagonist.

Referenced Story Points:
MAIN CHARACTER (Protagonist): Activities
Character and Plot Dynamics: Approach – Be-er

Scene #17 - Chapter 5-Protagonist Meets Guardian

–The protagonist pursues her∞2his goal. Introduce guardian. It is from the guardian that the protagonist obtains some powerful device that permits eventual resolution of the misfortune. But before receipt of the powerful device takes place, the protagonist is subjected to a number of diverse actions which, however, all lead to the result that a powerful device comes into her∞2his hands.

Referenced Story Points:
_Guardian: Description
_Guardian: Role
_Guardian: Function
_Guardian: _Guardian’s Introduction
Plot Information: Preconditions – The Present

Scene #18 - Chapter 6-Romantic Lead

–Romantic∞2buddy∞2or the like point of view. The backstory, issues and concerns that shape the romantic lead∞2buddy∞2or the like’s personal outlook.

Referenced Story Points:
Influence Character: Concern – The Future
Relationship: Issue – Rationalization
Influence Character: Signpost 1 – The Past
Synopses: IC Backstory

Scene #19 - Chapter 6-Red Herring

–Red herring (something used to divert attention from real issue) may be introduced, e.g., false clue, suspicious character who is really innocent, etc.

Referenced Story Points:
Overall: Symptom – Logic
Overall: Inhibitor – Commitment

Scene #20 - Chapter 6-Antagonist

–Antagonist may get wind of protagonist’s quest or romantic lead’s plan.

Referenced Story Points:
Overall: Benchmark – Gathering Information

Scene #21 - Chapter 7-Protagonist Endures Tests

–The protagonist is tested, interrogated, attacked, etc., which prepares the way for her∞2his receiving either a powerful device or helper. The protagonist reacts to the actions of the guardian.

Referenced Story Points:
Overall: Symptom – Logic
Main Character: Benchmark – Contemplation
Plot Information: Requirements – Gathering Information

Scene #22 - Chapter 7-Protagonist and Powerful Device

–The protagonist acquires the use of a powerful device, e.g., special weapon; special power.

Referenced Story Points:
Plot Information: Dividends – Innermost Desires

Scene #23 - Chapter 7-Protagonist Travel

–The protagonist is transferred, delivered, or led to the whereabouts of an object of search.

Referenced Story Points:
Overall: Catalyst – Morality

Scene #24 - Chapter 7-Protagonist and Antagonist Struggle

–The protagonist and antagonist join in direct confrontation. This is an action sequence–the first big peak of the novel.

Referenced Story Points:
Overall: Signpost 2 – Obtaining

Scene #25 - Chapter 8-Climactic Scene Continues

–The climactic scene continues with protagonist’s point of view. The antagonist pulls a potentially catastrophic trick (or appears to) that could destroy the protagonist and end story. The protagonist makes a narrow escape, but does not yet achieve the goal.

Referenced Story Points:
Plot Information: Forewarnings – Contemplation

Scene #26 - Chapter 8-Subplot: Protagonist Branded

–Relationship between protagonist and romantic lead∞2buddy∞2or the like is re-emphasized. A “mark” (literal or figurative) is made on the protagonist.

Referenced Story Points:
Relationship: Catalyst – Responsibility
Relationship: Signpost 2 – Playing a Role

Scene #27 - Chapter 9-Antagonist Reacts

–Antagonist’s viewpoint. Reaction to her∞2his failure to achieve ends. The antagonist makes new plans or reestablishes villainy in some way. May blame henchman.

Referenced Story Points:
_Sidekick: Function
Plot Information: Costs – The Future

Scene #28 - Chapter 9-Romantic Lead

–Move along romantic lead∞2buddy∞2or the like’s story line to next logical step–perhaps a disaster.

Referenced Story Points:
Influence Character: Signpost 2 – How Things are Changing

Scene #29 - Chapter 9-Antagonist

–Antagonist’s next villainous move.

Referenced Story Points:
_Antagonist: Activities

Scene #30 - Chapter 10-Protagonist Reevaluates Situation

–Protagonist reevaluates, heals, discovers new information, and reexamines motives for pursuing goal.

Referenced Story Points:
Overall: Inhibitor – Commitment
Main Character: Signpost 3 – Innermost Desires

Scene #31 - Chapter 10-Story Goal

–Story goal restated.

Referenced Story Points:
Plot Information: Goal – Obtaining

Scene #32 - Chapter 10-Subplot

–Relationship subplot intensifies. Positive or negative conflict between protagonist and romantic lead∞2buddy∞2or the like changes the relationship.

Referenced Story Points:
Relationship: Signpost 3 – Changing One’s Nature

Scene #33 - Chapter 11-Protagonist in Dire Straits

–Protagonist engages in action sequence. S∞2he is immediately thwarted by antagonist. Two to five scenes may involve chase, capture, or some type of cornering that puts protagonist in dire straits.

Referenced Story Points:
Plot Information: Forewarnings – Contemplation

Scene #34 - Chapter 12-Antagonist Upper Hand

–Continuation of chapter 11. Antagonist gains upper hand–reveals motivation. Some sort of story information may be revealed, for example, a clue or important piece of backstory.

Referenced Story Points:
_Antagonist: Background

Scene #35 - Chapter 12-Protagonist Faces Ruin

–Protagonist’s point of view. Horrific disaster at scene’s end. Protagonist’s last resort fails.

Referenced Story Points:
Main Character: Critical Flaw – Delay

Scene #36 - Chapter 13-Romantic Lead

–Romantic lead∞2buddy∞2or the like’s perspective on the events that are happening, or more personal information∞2backstory about the romantic lead∞2buddy∞2or the like.

Referenced Story Points:
Influence Character: Signpost 3 – The Future
Synopses: RS Backstory

Scene #37 - Chapter 14-Temporary Victory

–Big action scene. The protagonist temporarily defeats antagonist. The initial misfortune or lack is liquidated. Protagonist seizes object of a search by use of force or cleverness.

Referenced Story Points:
Plot Information: Dividends – Innermost Desires

Scene #38 - Chapter 14-Antagonist Escapes

–Antagonist gets away. Friends of protagonist may arrive too late to be of any help.

Referenced Story Points:
Overall: Response – Feeling

Scene #39 - Chapter 14-Protagonist Returns

–Protagonist is clear on future course of action.

Referenced Story Points:
Plot Information: Dividends – Innermost Desires

Scene #40 - Chapter 14-Subplot

–Difficulty in relationship combined with the story end in sight creates tension.

Referenced Story Points:
Character and Plot Dynamics: Limit – Optionlock
Overall: Benchmark – Gathering Information
Relationship: Inhibitor – Self Interest

Scene #41 - Chapter 15-Falling Action

–Novel is coming to a close. If there has been a red herring or substory–it is cleared up.

Referenced Story Points:
Overall: Signpost 3 – Gathering Information

Scene #42 - Chapter 15-Romantic Lead

–Romantic lead∞2buddy∞2or the like is in grave peril–either in a disaster set up in a scene where s∞2he tried to help, or by the antagonist.

Referenced Story Points:
Influence Character: Critical Flaw – Hope

Scene #43 - Chapter 15-Antagonist Strategy

–The antagonist plans a new strategy to foil the protagonist.

Referenced Story Points:
_Antagonist: Activities

Scene #44 - Chapter 16-Protagonist Thwarted

–A series of scenes in which the protagonist is thwarted.

Referenced Story Points:
Overall: Inhibitor – Commitment

Scene #45 - Chapter 16-Protagonist Finds Antagonist

–The protagonist finds antagonist and fights her∞2him on her∞2his grounds. Tables are turned and some violence occurs. Secondary character such as henchman or protagonist’s sidekick may come to a bad end.

Referenced Story Points:
Main Character: Signpost 4 – Contemplation

Scene #46 - Chapter 16-Subplot

–Protagonist learns of romantic lead∞2buddy∞2or the like’s plight and rushes to her∞2his side.

Referenced Story Points:
Relationship: Signpost 4 – Conceiving an Idea

Scene #47 - Chapter 17-Rescue

–Romantic lead∞2buddy∞2or the like is freed–but at the cost of weakening the protagonist’s position.

Referenced Story Points:
Influence Character: Unique Ability – Choice
Plot Information: Costs – The Future

Scene #48 - Chapter 17-Romantic Lead

–Romantic lead∞2buddy∞2or the like is left disillusioned, thinking the relationship is over.

Referenced Story Points:
Relationship: Inhibitor – Self Interest
Influence Character: Signpost 4 – The Present

Scene #49 - Chapter 17-Showdown

–Protagonist and antagonist close in on one another–physically or intellectually.

Referenced Story Points:
Synopses: Plot Point

Scene #50 - Chapter 18-Unrecognized Arrival

–This scene is optional. The protagonist, unrecognized, arrives “home”–e.g., where story started. The protagonist looks may be transformed; the protagonist may be working undercover, etc.

Referenced Story Points:
Synopses: Plot Point

Scene #51 - Chapter 18-Ultimate Confrontation

–The ultimate confrontation takes place in an exciting, extended scene. Any backstory and substory questions are answered.

Referenced Story Points:
Overall: Signpost 4 – Doing

Scene #52 - Chapter 18-Trump Card or False Claims

–The antagonist plays her∞2his last trump card–or another character makes false claims.

Referenced Story Points:
Overall: Inhibitor – Commitment

Scene #53 - Chapter 19-Antagonist Proposes Difficult Task

–The antagonist proposes a difficult task or ordeal to the protagonist to offer her∞2him a way out of the dilemma. Either choice means disaster.

Referenced Story Points:

Scene #54 - Chapter 19-Protagonist Resolves Task

–In most cases the protagonist makes a choice for the greater good–but to their personal detriment. The biggest fight occurs here. All stops pulled out.

Referenced Story Points:
Plot Information: Consequence – Changing One’s Nature

Scene #55 - Chapter 19-Protagonist Recognition

–The protagonist is recognized for their integrity. They may also be recognized after a long separation.

Referenced Story Points:
Main Character: Issue – Closure

Scene #56 - Chapter 19-Antagonist or False Claims Exposed

–The antagonist is revealed or false claims about the protagonist are exposed.

Referenced Story Points:
Overall: Solution – Consider

Scene #57 - Chapter 19-Protagonist Given New Appearance

–The protagonist either undergoes essential change or is made more resolute to their initial self.

Referenced Story Points:
Character and Plot Dynamics: Resolve – Change
Main Character: Solution – Consider

Scene #58 - Chapter 19-Antagonist Punished

–The antagonist is punished in some way, e.g., shot, banished, commits suicide, or may be pardoned.

Referenced Story Points:
_Antagonist: Dismissal

Scene #59 - Chapter 20-Story Outcome

–Plot loose ends are tied up

Referenced Story Points:
Character and Plot Dynamics: Outcome – Success
Main Character: Unique Ability – Dream

Scene #60 - Chapter 20-Subplot Outcome

–Subplot relationship resolved.

Referenced Story Points:
Character and Plot Dynamics: Growth – Start
Character and Plot Dynamics: Judgment – Bad
Relationship: Solution – Help

This is not really right. The initial Driver could involve the hero, or he could be brought in much later. Instead, think of the initial Story Driver as the event that “upsets the balance”. Prior to it there was a kind of balance, and after it there is a problem or inequity that needs to be addressed. The Story Goal then comes about as an attempt to resolve this inequity.

For example, in Star Wars (1977) the initial Story Driver is Vader’s Star Destroyer attacking Leia’s consular ship (Action). Although you could assume someone made that decision, there is no focus or emphasis put on such a decision – we never see it.

Also note that Luke Skywalker is not brought into the main story until later on. His involvement is indirectly related to the first Driver (it sparked a chain that led to the droids seeking Obi-Wan and finding Luke), but not directly.

So in your story, for the Driver to be decision, you would want to emphasize the decision that TDE made to go after the relic (or one of the other decisions in your chain) as being something important that sparked things off. I’m well aware of the chicken-egg problem here, and have struggled with it myself. In fact, I wrote a whole blog post about it:

Keep in mind, often when people want decisions to be important in their stories – people making tough choices – they’re actually writing Action Driver stories. Because it’s the actions that force those tough choices.

1 Like

I agree with Gretgolas where he says

I believe we might be able to reframe what the balance is. Imagine that you are one of the NG. TDE has just snatched up a WMD (weapon of mass destruction) and is using it to significantly change the affect of the coming war by murdering your friends and allies. Now, the guy who is going to do something about that (Baldur) has decided to seek help from a guy DESTINED to be your enemy (Loki). That is a massive disruption of the balance! And it makes the story something very, very different than [quote=“Gregolas, post:76, topic:1487”]
just really straightforward
[/quote]
Now, we’re looking at something closer to Silence of the Lambs, except Hannibal is a good guy who is trying to escape his destiny of learning how to serve [BBQed] people. The loss of the relic disrupts the balance, but, so, too, does the decision to bring Loki on board. The second of those disruptions is the bigger one.

The thing is, if the theft of the weapon is not the first Driver, and the first Driver happens after that … that is equivalent to saying that everything is basically in balance (not changing) even though TDE has the weapon and is using it murder incarnates.

I thought the Story Goal was about retrieving the weapon and stopping TDE? If that’s the thing that resolves the story’s difficulties, it seems like the theft of the weapon by TDE is a pretty good choice for what sets things in motion. (Or TDE’s Decision to steal and use it, if you want to focus on that.)

I’m not trying to be argumentative, just trying to help you accurately represent your story in the storyform. It probably doesn’t matter too much because a lot of people end up adjusting their storyform during or after their first draft anyway, as they begin to see things more clearly. And yours is amazingly clear already! However, if you want to use the Plot Sequence Report, which is pretty awesome, it does help to get the storyform as accurate as possible.

I’m also not sure about the “too bland” argument – if it’s a story about stopping a badguy who’s running amok, that’s what it is. Don’t be afraid of that – make it awesome AS that. You have so much awesome storytelling with the NGs and how you’ve creatively incorporated all the mythology in the modern world etc. And besides, the awesome non-bland stuff about Luke/Loki – his personal struggles, his dangerous destiny – is in there already; that’s not affected by what the Story Driver is.

Have you considered the possibility that this event could be the first Driver in the series (which has its own storyform)? From your summaries, it seemed like the theft of the weapon and stopping TDE was the scope of Book 1’s story. Whereas it seems like Luke/Loki’s destiny to murder Baldur and betray everyone etc. has a scope larger than Book 1, and isn’t resolved by the end of Book 1.

Keep in mind, with Dramtica you always want to look at things objectively, the Author’s point of view. Looking at things from the perspective of the characters can often lead you astray when storyforming (even though it’s great and necessary when it’s time to do the storytelling, the actual writing).

Shoot. I didn’t mean to derail the convo, but may have. Keep in mind I’m not a professional writer, and still have lots of blind spots with Dramatica, so don’t let me mislead you. That said, I want to try (and probably fail) to quickly explain the way I would see either option playing out and maybe find a way to make both work by the time I get to the end.

If I were writing the story with stealing the prophecy as the first act driver, that would force the decision to recruit Luke. The story would start with Luke in the counselors office, maybe some of his home life, relationship with step dad, then Boone shows up and says “yer a wizard, Har-” I mean, “your a god, Luke. We need your help.” Luke goes along pretty easily. The main focus of the OS is getting the prophecy back. Luke was recruited because they need his help and because he would eventually be targeted by TDE and need protection. I compared it to Harry Potter not to say the stories are the same, but just to show that that’s kind of how I see this story starting out. It would end with Luke becoming Loki, and stopping TDE. It probably wouldn’t feel like there was any more story necessary except for what I set up at the end. Using Luke/Loki to defeat the BBEG wouldn’t come into play much until the next story. Also, because he feels guilty and sabotages himself with the college/joyride thing, he’ll end up sabotaging himself in the fight against TDE only to overcome everything.

If recruiting Luke is the first driver, I’m not sure how I’d use it as a decision. what action would that force? If the other NGs are afraid of Luke, I’d probably have them exile Boone or something. So the NGs would be trying to do something to protect themselves or to fight or whatever, but it would be Boone and Loki efforts that would save the day if only they could all work together.

Initially I figured recruiting Luke would be an action that forced Like to decide to leave home and earn his way by helping in the fight. In this version he may be more reluctant to join the fight and might need some convincing. If I were doing this version, recruiting Luke would be the main concern and the stolen prophecy would be more of a backstory and Luke/Loki’s help would be more about bringing about Ragnarok in the larger story. The NGs being hunted and killed with the stolen prophecy would be what convinced him to jump in and try to make up for the guilt he feels over his brothers death by helping the other NGs. Once he does that and succeeds, he’ll be convinced that he needs to help bring about Ragnarok in the following chapters.

The best I can come up with to meld the two would be to have the first driver be the theft of the prophecy which would force the decision to recruit Luke/Loki for the larger Ragnarok battle and then this story would feel very much like it was about fetching the prophecy, but with an eye toward preparing for Ragnarok once the NGs are safe from TDE.

I realize none of those are probably completely in line with your vision and probably don’t fully work. But hopefully that kind of helps to show how each initial driver might lead to a very differently told story.

Couple last points since I see Mike just posted again. Based on everything said, I feel like the theft of the prophecy was the first driver you and he were working toward and it’s what I would go with too. While I called that bland, I didn’t really mean to change the course of things or say that it would create a bland story. I only really meant to point out that I liked for the OS Concern and Goal not to look so much like the same thing, which can be fixed without changing the story drastically, and I wanted to encourage the line of thinking outside the box of “my problem is negative X so my solution needs to be positive X” if that makes sense. But Mikes right, that can still be awesome and it’s the path I’d probably take. Anyway, again, all up to you.

1 Like

I don’t think it means things are previously in balance in the story world. I think it just pushes the perspective of this story slightly to the side such that TDE thing feels almost beside the story at hand or feels like another storyform. I think I mentioned that it might turn stealing of the procphecy into backstory (which probably isn’t quite right). I think what I was really seeing that I liked was how it seemed to both set this story into drive while also setting up a larger series. Anyway, I feel like I’ve done enough damage to the conversation and will step back so you guys can get this story rolling!

Hey Greg, defininitely don’t feel you need to step back; it’s important to have different opinions when analysing a story.

I think once the story got going you’d find lots of different instances of the OS Concern, like TDE is concerned with killing all the incarnates he can (obtaining their deaths), Luke & Boone are trying to retrieve the artifact, maybe some characters are trying to escape, etc. Some of those instances might be close to, or actually be, the Story Goal, but others would be a lot different.

1 Like

Please don’t. A second opinion is helpful.

I created a story form with OS Concern: Obtain, IC Problem: Temptation, MC Unique Ability: Dream, RS Issue: Rationalization, Cost: the Future, MC Signpost 1: Memories, Optionlock, and Driver: Action.

I thought to create the same Storyform, but with Driver: Decision. I just wanted to see what all changed between these two storerooms.

With Action:
OS Benchmark: Going
OS Signposts: Gathering Information, Doing, Obtaining, Understanding
Requirements: Doing
Forewarnings: Impulsive Responses
Prerequisites: Playing a Role
Preconditions: How Things Are Changing
MC Benchmark: Contemplation
IC Benchmark:How Things are Changing
RS Benchmark: Playing a Role

With Decision:
OS Benchmark: Gathering Information
OS Signpost: Doing, Obtaining, Gathering Information, Understanding
Requirements: Gathering Information
Forewarnings: Contemplation
Prerequisites: Conceiving an Idea
Preconditions: The Present
MC Benchmark: Impulsive Responses
IC Benchmark: The Present
RS Benchmark: Conceiving an Idea

You’re getting really close! But again, I would caution against setting the storyform using Signposts and Unique Ability. I know you like MC Signopst 1 of Memories, and Unique Ability of Dream, but I really think you should carefully examine the more fundamental points like Judgment and Linear/Holisitc. Then, if you can’t decide figure out those, you can use Signposts and U.Ability/C.Flaws (both MC and IC) to help figure out – just like you are doing above with Driver choice and Benchmarks.

Here’s one example – here you write about something that happens in the MC throughline’s first act, and to me it sounds like it could be a Signpost of Conscious (aka Contemplation):

You might find that what you thought was an MC Signpost 1 of Memories was actually a Benchmark of Memories – maybe he remembers his brother at different points throughout the story, and how he does so demonstrates his growth. Just one possibility – it could also be the other way around, with the above example representing a Benchmark of Conscious.

Sometimes liking things too much can make us less objective and lead us astray.

I like your understanding of Hope and Dream. However, try not to fall into the trap of thinking that certain elements are “better” or “more dramatic” than others. They can all be awesome, the question is how well they fit a particular story.

Besides, in your analogy, Hope would be about the guy who’s given up everything to train for the Great Bridge Sprint, hoping with everything he’s got that he’s going to win and set the course record. Yes, the bridge is solid – no one would worry about setting the record for crossing a seemingly nonexistent bridge – but that solidity enables other interesting dramatics and conflict.

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[quote=“mlucas, post:91, topic:1487”]but that solidity enables other interesting dramatics and conflict.
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None of which seem relevant to my story.

Cool, that’s what matters! Though I think Hope may still be important in your story, isn’t it the IC Critical Flaw in both your above storyforms? That’s the thing that reduces the IC’s impact on the MC; it could even be the MC’s own hopes or hopelessness, as long as it reduces that impact.

How do you see the MC Unique Ability of Dream working? How about the IC Unique Ability of Choice?

We already decided that
Outcome: Successs (publishers tend to look for this in books they accept)
Judement: Good (Luke isn’t able to return home, but he has grown substantially along the quest)
Limit: Optionlock (we talked about this earlier and agreed that Optionlock is a good choice)
Resolve: Change (he has grown substantially along the quest)
Approach: Be-er (as Boone is a do-er, Luke must be a Be-er)
Problem-Solving Style: Holistic (like Sherlock Holmes, Ender Wiggins, Adrian Monk, and Benedict of Amber, Luke thinks in higher dimensions than everyone else)

Given the fundamental choices above, if we have MC Benchmark: Memories, then MC Signpost 1 must be Memories. If we have MC Benchmark: Contemplation, then MC Signpost 1 must be Memories.
The only good option here that I see is MC:Benchmark Contemplation and MC Signpost 1: Memories

Okay great! I wasn’t sure, because I thought I had posed a few additional questions on Judgment and audience reach (Optionlock-Holistic tending to reach female audiences better, though there are plenty of examples of ones that males still enjoyed).

Just make sure that you really understand what Holistic (aka Female Mental Sex) is before choosing that in your storyform. (This was something I got wrong in one my stories.) You can still have a “higher dimension” thinking Linear MC. To me, Sherlock Holmes is often using linear thinking – deduction being a logical process. But I haven’t read the books since I was young, and it’s quite possible he’s employing deduction while still balancing all of the forces involved.

So, assuming you don’t change your mind after brushing up on Holistic, you’re right there’s only those two storyforms left, with either Action or Decision as the driver.

Since I know we were struggling a bit with Driver (chicken-egg etc.), does one of the OS Signpost progressions call out to you more? What about the Benchmarks / Requirements / Forewarnings / etc.? Make sure to consider the old terms for the Types – Gathering Information can be Learning, teaching, etc.

Regardless of what Driver you choose, you should probably save both versions of your storyform. When I started my current novel I had several storyforms (saved as HTML files using the tool found here) bookmarked in my browser:

It wasn’t until I had around 75K words before I was sure on the top one!

I do understand the idea of audience reach, I just don’t agree with it.
There are many literary characters which appeal strongly to males and have a holistic problem-solving style. I listed four of them above. I bet that the majority of private dic characters have a holistic style.

That sounds like excellent advice which I’ll certainly follow.

Interesting article on the holistic assassin.

Back before I became disabled, my professional job was in cybersecurity. Holistic problem style, as discussed in the holistic assassin article, seems to closely parallel the typical approach of a computer hacker.

I’m not sure about this. Holistic has to do with balancing the environment in order to solve problems. I think many detective stories would use if-then type thinking during their investigations, which is inherently linear. (e.g. if the glass is on the outside, the window must’ve been broken from within.) And keep in mind that the majority of females tend toward holistic problem solving – it’s not something reserved only for famous thinkers.

When I mistakenly chose Holistic for one of my stories, I thought it meant intuitive. I learned that you can be highly intuitive but still linear. This would be like, skipping a step or two in the linear thinking, like A -> B -> D. Whereas Holistic is more like: A? Cheeseburger.

You’re probably right … but with Dramatica, be careful not to assume any story points unless they come from officially analysed stories, or examples in the theory book.


Anyway, I’m not great with Holistic thinking. I just know that if you find your MC doing any if-then type thinking (if I join Boone in his quest, then I might live up to my destiny and kill him … but if I’m very careful to watch myself, I think it’ll be okay), i’ts more likely he’s Linear.

All that said, it’s certainly your decision … I feel like I’m probably annoying you by being so careful on these last important points!

I don’t think that’s true. I do understand and agree that an if…then algorithm in and of itself is linear. However, neural nets are made of if…then processes and, I believe, neural nets are characteristically holistic.
Look at this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9b3KM2p1nHs It is a bunch of if…then thinking, BUT it has arranged those if…then processes into a neural net. Holmes is simultaneously identifying a bunch of details (both details which exist and, importantly, details which don’t exist or don’t matter) and combining them to create a gestalt holistic conclusion.

By the way, here’s a great example of what I think of as “holistic problem solving” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=se_iv1SJxiI