How common are IC handoffs? (+ signpost-related questions)

writing
#1

I keep running into this problem where my outline unfolds such that the IC player doesn’t show up until after the 2nd signpost (for example). (In my case, the IC player does appear in Signpost 1, she just doesn’t meet the MC yet).

Is it better to a) try to rework the plot, or b) just figure out some kind of IC stand-in for signpost 1?

I feel like there are lots of stories like (b), but is there some reason why you wouldn’t do this?

And if you do use a IC stand-in, what do you do with the RS? It’s hard to see how a relationship is growing or declining if the first mention of it is with a different person (or with a memory of a person).

#2

Two things about the following answer. 1. It’s going to be more on theoretical side and 2. Might be way off base.

So we’ve established before on this board that the IC is the you perspective as seen from the I perspective. The MC represents the I perspective. So who is (am?) I? The I should be the Storymind, right?

Now IF that’s right, what I think it means is that your IC player can appear in the story without making contact with the MC player and still fulfill the role of you as seen from the I perspective of the Storymind. So far, this works because, as also established previously, the IC player can theoretically be completely absent and still influence the MC. The way this relates to your story (if I’m understanding your problem) is that you can show your IC SP 1 taking place and how she influences others without having her meet the MC yet and it should still work structurally.

And then keep in mind that just because all your SPs are taking place at the same time doesn’t mean they are shown in that order. You can tell OS and MC SPs 1and 2 and then move backward to show IC 1 and 2, or you can just have a scene where the MC is being caught up on IC SP 1 through exposition or something.

Again, take with at least 1 grain of Sodium Chloride.

2 Likes
#3

Greg, I really like your answer but I think there is one minor issue. The IC’s influence on the MC has to occur during the timeframe of structural act 1, within the story’s timeline. So it’s not enough for it to affect the MC once they do meet, if that meeting occurs during after any signpost 2s (structural act 2)

That said, perhaps the IC can influence the MC indirectly during the proper timeframe. (News reports, phone calls, messages, etc.)

@Lakis, to answer your question, I think they’re fairly common. Black Panther, for example, uses Nakia before Killmonger gets close enough to T’Challa. That might be a good example of how to handle the relationship story too. There’s also Trinity in The Matrix – I think she’s mostly RS.

One suggestion – you might want to develop your outline to the end (at least as much as you plan to) before trying to figure this part out. You might find that once your author’s story-mind can see the whole story, a stand-in IC (or another solution) presents itself for Act 1 almost automatically. Possibly with the right RS aspects there too. Since Dramatica is just helping us get to what our narratively-tuned brains appreciate, your muse might provide the right pieces for you.

Part of the reason I suggest that is that Jim has said getting IC hand-offs right can be a real pain. So if you have to do it, I think it might be better to feel your way through it, at least on the first draft. (Actually, speaking of first drafts, you could just ignore this “rule” that there has to be an IC & RS signpost 1, and skip them for now. After your draft is done you might find that you put IC & RS signpost 1s in perfectly somehow.)

2 Likes
#4

Yeah, I started losing it when I started thinking about showing SPs out of order. I deleted the offending material from the post.

2 Likes
#5

Okay, thanks to you both. These are great answers.

There are other examples I’m thinking of (Lexicon) where a bunch of stuff happens to the MC and the IC seems not to be present. But maybe you’re right, I need to just let it flow for now and see what comes out in the draft.

I keep looping back to this concern that sometimes I’m writing to serve Dramatica rather than using it appropriately as a tool.

That may give me some ideas!

1 Like
#6

Just one caveat – if something feels wrong there, and you feel like you need to work out the IC’s influence in act 1, then definitely do that. It’s possible you might need to fix that first before your muse will really grasp what’s going on and play along.

An example I have is in a story I worked on with Jim, where I had this big “gap” in the story (end of act 3-ish) where I couldn’t see what was going to happen there. And Jim found that my Act 3->4 Story Driver was a Decision when all the rest were Actions. As soon as we fixed that – made something happen to force the MC to choose to run away from her IC mentor, rather than just deciding out of the blue – that part of the story totally came alive in my head and everything started to fit.

1 Like
#7

Dr. Zhivago had the Lara IC show up after a lot had happened to the MC. Maybe, setup is as natural as breathig, and no biggie.

1 Like
#8

And as always the IC can be a collective played by characters that are standing in for that perspective, that came up in the DUG last night. The IC was Serenity’s CREW. So if you can watch the Firefly episode Out Of Gas, you might get some ideas of passing the perspective around.

1 Like
#9

@Prish That’s probably a good example – I’ll take a look. Maybe it’s simpler than I’m making it out to be.

@jassnip I feel like this happens a lot, even if there’s one “main” IC – in the Cars analysis we did I thought that Doc Hudson was the IC but there was a hand off between the King at the beginning and all the characters of Radiator Springs were kind of ICs. I’ve never watched Firefly but it’s on my list!

#10

Hey, @Lakis. That’s actually kind of cool, I think. Though, it sounds like it could make things difficult.
(I’m dealing with something similar in the final signposts for my novel.)

Anyway, to answer the question, I remember Jim saying in one of his podcasts or articles that it was a real nightmare to deal with an IC hand-off, and he suggested to avoid it if possible. Although, I don’t remember within what context this came up. Additionally, it seems to be somewhat common.

Now, with the answer @Gregolas gives in theoretical terms, I’m wondering if may expound on that and suggest a possibility to think about. Since the IC seems to best stand for “Influence Character” now and represents the You perspective, would it be possible to have this influence come indirectly? (Making sure the reader is clear on where the influence actually comes from.)

I’m thinking something like lost letters, or some kind of news coming down the grapevine, or if you have broadcast technology available, some news story or the like. I feel like this might also help in giving the RS an existence without having the “I” directly interacting with any player representing “You”, since it seems that would be the case here.

I don’t know if this would work or not, but it was the first thing I thought of when I read your post.

2 Likes
#11

I should probably stop thinking out loud on here the way I often do. I’ve been thinking about my idea all day and wish I hadn’t posted, though I’m not going to delete now. In fact, I brought it up in a new thread.

Something like this is, I think, what I was trying to come up with with my ramblings above. Maybe something like MC, who used to be in special ops but has since given it up is asked to do one more mission. He declines until he hears that a certain unlikely set of events has taken place. Something about these unlikely events causes the MC to rethink things and take the mission. The IC, of course, would be the character that caused the unlikely set of events. The IC and MC haven’t met, and yet the MC is being influenced.

2 Likes
#12

I was thinking about this – something like this is probably the answer (if I can figure it out!).

I guess the key here would be to make sure (by the end of the story) that the audience knows that the events are attributable to the IC. I was going to bring up Lexicon as an example of this but I realized I had the MC/IC’s switched because much of the story takes place from the IC POV (this stuff gets complicated).

#13

Yeah, I mean I figure you could even show the IC causing these things and have the MC being told about it a scene or two later (normal scene, not Dramatica SP later)

1 Like
#14

A reveal by a family member?

1 Like