Onward - The Return of the Story Limit

[MWollaeger]

@Greg

No, but it seems like they only look at the watch to talk about how they’re running out of time. And I don’t remember seeing it at all when the sun actually goes down…though to be fair, I don’t recall seeing the sun go down either. Just the father fading away.

Yes, agree on both. They are pretty lax about a hard deadline.

@Greg

But if you look at everything in the story and not just the end, the tendency of the story is for things to come to an end because of space.

This is really interesting! I’m not sure this matters, but it feels like this must matter!

Thinking about the end of the water… the water was the “room” they were looking in, and what he finds is “played catch with dad” (though he doesn’t recognize it at first).

Now that I’ve typed this out, this seems like a Requirement or Prerequisite, not an option. Or maybe an Option (water) + Requirement (item on checklist).

@Greg

And I can’t think of anything else in the story that came to an end because of time or felt like it had to be done in time.

Only thing that comes to mind: taking the freeway is faster, taking the Road of Peril costs them time. Interestingly, they end up doing both (so, both options) and realize that they right way to think about the problem was to ask “what are my options?” and not “what is the fastest way to do this?”

[mlucas]

Saw it the other night. Great movie! Whole family enjoyed it.

@MWollaeger

and realize that they right way to think about the problem was to ask “what are my options?” and not “what is the fastest way to do this?”

I was thinking this too, that the supposed timelock is actually part of the story’s message, i.e. an illustration of the perspective that needs to change.

And although there are several moments in the movie where characters are concerned about the remaining time … time never seems to “force the story to a close” or “bring about the story’s conclusion” which are the usual definitions of Story Limit.

Meanwhile, running out of space on their journey, of different places / options to find the Phoenix Stone, does bring about the story’s conclusion. Once they end up back in their neighbourhood, their options have dwindled (seemingly to zero, but actually there’s one place left to look).

[Greg]

@MWollaeger

This is really interesting! I’m not sure this matters, but it feels like this must matter!

I’m thinking it could either be that we are just watching options run out—we’re told up front that there’s one option and that it’s the sun going down, but there are actually more options than that—or it could be that the Storymind has taken the perspective that things are limited by space. Not just the story as a whole, but individual acts and scenes as well.

Or it could be me looking for something that isn’t there. But I believe the story limit is supposed to affect things in the story at a level not offered by the Dramatica software, but at a level that the software does calculate nonetheless. So even if you can’t point to a clear story limit because of confused storytelling, assuming there is a story limit in the story you should still be able to look at the rest of the story for clues to what the limit is. And that’s all I was doing.

[RailwayAdventurer]

@Greg

I believe the story limit is supposed to affect things in the story at a level not offered by the Dramatica software, but at a level that the software does calculate nonetheless.

It probably affects the story at the level beneath the Plot Sequence Report, which is actually programmed into the Dramatica Story Engine but isn’t available to the users as it’s in deeper than anyone would ever need to go in order to communicate their story.

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By the way, congratulations on joining the team at NarrativeFirst, @Greg!

[Greg]

@RailwayAdventurer

It probably affects the story at the level beneath the Plot Sequence Report

A Theme Sequence? Could be. Or maybe it could affect the temporal order of how the Issues and Counter issues play out, or maybe PRCO. Could be a couple places, I spose.

@RailwayAdventurer

By the way, congratulations on joining the team at NarrativeFirst, @Greg!

Thanks, @RailwayAdventurer. I’m super excited about it! You can find me occasionally replying to questions emailed in through Subtext so send all your theory related questions and keep me busy!

[chuntley]

@mlucas

If the story/storymind (usually via characters) can affect the timing of the limit that brings on the story’s conclusion, it’s not a Timelock. A Timelock’s limit must be fixed.

I think the premise of this statement is wrong. The characters cannot affect any story point, including the Limit, because they are inside the story. A limit can only be understood ‘outside’ of the story – objectively. Limits are, not may be. Characters are constructs of storytelling used to relate the narrative to an audience. By definition, a Limit brings about the climax because a limit has been reached where there is nothing new to try that doesn’t involve repeating. The end of the Limit is the “Shit or get off the pot” moment in the story.

The purpose of a Limit is to provide a defined context within which the narrative may be explored in a closed system.

• A timelock is a Limit that uses units of time (of whatever size) and once exhausted brings about the climax.

• An optionlock is a Limit that uses units of space or options (of whatever number) and once explored brings about the climax.

[mlucas]

Thanks Chris. I think I was trying to make the same point you were making in the below post when you said “the story limit was not locked”. But you’re right, I was looking at it backwards.

Timelocks Always Fixed?

As written, the Story Limit is a confusing optionlock. It is not a timelock because the Story Limit was not locked. All this speculation is silly from a story creation context because you're looking at it backwards. A story has a Story Limit of a Timelock or an Optionlock because that is what the author has chosen. BOTH are possible choices until one is decided (from a story creation point of view). From a story analysis perspective, you must look to what the author gives you -- which i…