Rear window, again

[GetSchwifty]

looking at this always helps me remember how to regard the throughlines.

**overall story throughline
the audience sees the events of the story from outside and sees all the characters fulfilling their dramatic functions
Two people in an apartment watch a man across the way murder his wife then uncover the crime and capture the criminal for the police

**subjective story throughline
the audience sees the relationship and the arguments from outside
We see Jeffries and Lisa interacting and arguing and changing each other and the story, we see the arguments for capturing and not capturing Thorwald weighed, and we see their relationship threatened

**main character throughline
the audience experiences the story as if it were happening to them
We're Jeffries and we're experiencing the events through the hero

**impact character throughline
the audience experiences the MC watching the IC and reacting to the IC as the IC tries to solve his problem.
Jeffries watches Thorwald and reacts as Thorwald deals with having murdered his wife and smuggling the body out for burial in the yard.

It's such a pure example, it's why the Dramatica software and theory book includes it.

[GetSchwifty]

and I include notes here about time and space sense. I believe this is correct, but...

looking at this always helps me remember how to regard the throughlines.

**overall story throughline
the audience sees the events of the story from outside and sees all the characters fulfilling their dramatic functions
Two people in an apartment watch a man across the way murder his wife then uncover the crime and capture the criminal for the police
Spatial sense stops
Temporal sense as we move through events

**subjective story throughline
the audience sees the relationship and the arguments from outside
We see Jeffries and Lisa interacting and arguing and changing each other and the story, we see the arguments for capturing and not capturing Thorwald weighed, and we see their relationship threatened
Time stops during arguing
Spatial sense

**main character throughline
the audience experiences the story as if it were happening to them
We're Jeffries and we're experiencing the events through the hero
Space stops
Temporal sense as we move through events and experience them

**impact character throughline
the audience experiences the MC watching the IC and reacting to the IC as the IC tries to solve his problem.
Jeffries watches Thorwald and reacts as Thorwald deals with having murdered his wife and smuggling the body out for burial in the yard.
Time stops
Spatial sense as we are problem solving. the IC

It's such a pure example, it's why the Dramatica software and theory book includes it.

...just throwing this out to see if it sticks to the wall...

[Brian]

Hi. Actually, Dramatica doesn't use throughlines the same as regular DEEP LITERARY THEME THEORY that the professionals use.

Woolrich the author used the throughlines like this -

MAIN STORY - MANIPULATION Everybody in Greenwich village is affected by an heatwave. Lisa plays the role of Detective-burgular. The responsible police arrest Thorwald for murdering his wife.

MAIN - FIXED-ATTITUDE Jeff uses his precious camera lens to spy on neighbours. He hears a suspicious scream in the night.

MAIN V IMPACT - SITUATION This is Jeff V his neighbours. Jeff observes their fate in the hands of the heatwave. He is threatened by the sight of Thorwald.

I C - ACTIVITY Is the behind the back of Thorwald and the other neighbours view. Lisa and Stella dig up the flower bed to help Jeff.

Dramatica is different, but can be helpful.

[Lakis]

Hi Brian. Welcome to the forums!

I'm a little confused by your post. You say:

Dramatica doesn't use throughlines the same as regular DEEP LITERARY THEME THEORY that the professionals use.

What story paradigm are you referring to? I think professional writers use a lot of different story paradigms.

Woolrich the author used the throughlines like this -

Are you trying to use Dramatica terms to describe a different process? Your example uses the the four Dramatica Domains (Manipulation, Fixed Attitude, Situation, Activities) but not the way Dramatica theory would describe them. For example, if your OS is in Manipulation, then the RS (what you're calling Main vs. Impact) by definition must be in Activities (they are dynamic pairs).

[Greg]

DEEP LITERARY THEME THEORY

Are there other theories that can even be considered deep when compared to Dramatica?

[MWollaeger]

the professionals

Well, I'm intrigued.

[museful]

Reminds me of my theory classes in film school.

If I understand what you're referencing, you're talking about African American literary theory, Psychoanalytic literary theory, Feminist literary theory, ad nauseum.

All of these kinds of theory were applied to film as well.

My mentor (many years ago) was a leader in the area of Cognitive Film theory, and pushed for film theory to be empirical and observable in a scientific manner. This was in contrast to the various theories that tried to advance ideological causes.

In regard to professional, it means they were paid. That's true, there were many paid positions for literary theory in academia, but not as many nowadays. Literary theory isn't, generally speaking, used by writers and movie makers. Sometimes, but I think most successful writers and filmmakers want to sell their books or movies.

I find that the use of literary theory (if we are talking about the same thing) in filmmaking feels heavy handed and propagandistic. Cognitive theory is different as it chooses to use scientific method to understand why film affects us as it does rather than pushing an agenda.

Pure theory isn't particularly useful unless it can be harnessed in a functional way to create desired effects. I have that same requirement of Dramatica. I wouldn't still be here if I didn't think that it could be used in a functional way. However, I'm not so convinced that these other literary theories lend themselves to functional approaches (at least, not without a lot of retooling).

[Brian]

Hi everybody.

Well, if you don't know what - DEEP LITERARY THEME THEORY is then I firmly suggest you talk to actual published authors and film makers. This is what THE PLOT-CARD SYSTEM is and it works . . .

It generates HERO's JOURNEY for TV writers and their 4 episode series - and it also makes up THE 4 ACT STRUCTURE.
Only people who use deep literary themes get published. This is what literary agents read for.

HARPER LEE used both HERO's JOURNEY and 4 THROUGH-LINES to write TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD - that is why that book is THE GOLD STANDARD.

Further assessing REAR WINDOW - I have discovered that it is far from a pure story . . .

It is a 16 block - 4 THROUGH-LINE story on relationships - the GUARDIAN = Composer, whose music touches hearts and minds. He gets together with Miss Lonely Hearts- and gets Jeff and Lisa together too ! Nurse = EMOTION.

Then we have another 16 block - 4 THROUGH-LINE with the murder plot. This time GUARDIAN = The police force. SKEPTIC = Doyle. NURSE = REASON.

I'm afraid Dramatica cannot see all the things I refer too - so it is not the all powerful theory of story at all. Remember, even the creators of the theory DO NOT know this deep-literary theme theory.

Please talk to other published authors and get them to assess REAR WINDOW using literary themes and they will agree with me. This is how the film was really created.

[didomachiatto]

Please talk to other published authors and get them to assess REAR WINDOW using literary themes and they will agree with me.

Hey, @Brian, this is a Dramatica theory users group actually made up of "published authors and film makers". You probably would love getting to know this program and its theory. But there's a unique angle Dramatica uses to approach the Storymind, as it's called. There are dozens of angles that are considered to narrow a story down in theme and purpose, this is called Dramatica.

According to Dramatica theory, ideas like Save the Cat and Hero's Journey are only discussing one or another aspect of the big picture of what stories do. Since there are other types of story besides Hero's Journey, or Save the Cat, Dramatica holds the overarching meaning.

That said, people on this forum are pretty loyal to this methodology, so referring them to what "other published authors" think is asking them to go backwards in theory, not forward.

For a Dramatica user, other theories are shallower compared to the advanced, or "deeper" interpretation Dramatica gives to 32,768+ ways to write a novel.

In the end, we all just want to write a good story. Dramatica gives the structure and options for all types of story beyond the Hero's Journey. If the Plot Card system is good for you, and makes sense for you, that's wonderful and it is functional for your writing.

But this forum is pretty loyal to Dramatica.

It is a 16 block - 4 THROUGH-LINE story on relationships

This sounds interesting. But this is the one we use on this forum.

Also, to understand the difference between Dramatica and other theories, I came across this article that may be helpful for you. Take a look at page 13 on.
http://dramatica.com/resources/assets/Dramatica_paradigms-0707.pdf

[Lakis]

Well, if you don't know what - DEEP LITERARY THEME THEORY

Can you post some links? I literally cannot figure out what you're talking about. Is "Deep Literary Theme Theory" a specific theory? Googling "deep literary theme theory" in quotes yields only four links, two of them that are clearly out of date, one of them to this discussion, another to another forum in which you (it must be you) try to make a similar argument against Dramatica.

If you mean it more generally, then it makes even less sense. I have a B.A. in English Literature. I've read Derrida and Lacan and Benjamin and Harold Bloom. I've sat in seminars and written papers. Does that count?

Only people who use deep literary themes get published. This is what literary agents read for.

Seriously? I've read some pretty questionable published books that I would be hard pressed to define a "deep literary theme" for. But I agree that great stories make a deep thematic argument. The entire point of Dramatica is to help make that thematic argument.

Remember, even the creators of the theory DO NOT know this deep-literary theme theory.

Since we haven't established what "deep-literary theme theory" even is, this assertion is meaningless.

HARPER LEE used both HERO's JOURNEY and 4 THROUGH-LINES to write TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD

If you google "four throughlines" the results are all about Dramatica. I have never seen another theory that uses four throughlines. Do you have a link? Also what do you mean when you say Harper Lee "used" the hero's journey? Does she mention this somewhere in her writing process?

It is unlikely that she used Dramatica, as To Kill a Mockingbird was published in 1960.

that is why that book is THE GOLD STANDARD

It's a great story, but in what sense is it the gold standard? (As opposed to Hamlet, Romeo and Juliette, Jane Eyre, Pride and Prejudice, etc. etc.)

Further assessing REAR WINDOW - I have discovered that it is far from a pure story . . .

What does "pure story" mean to you? Do you mean it's not a GAS? Does this mean that you accept Dramatica's idea of a grand argument, but you think the official analysis is wrong? Or do you think Dramatica's approach is somehow incomplete? Your argument so far is circular.

Please talk to other published authors and get them to assess REAR WINDOW using literary themes and they will agree with me.

It sounds like you have developed your own theories about Rear Window, which appear to conflict with your understanding of Dramatica. Why not just say that? Making vague references to "literary themes" and assertions about how other unnamed published authors would back you up isn't going to convince anyone here (even if we could understand what you're talking about).

[Greg]

THE PLOT-CARD SYSTEM

Is this a reference to putting plot points on index cards so you can move them around and add or take away cards? And are you suggesting that this is a form of deep literary theme theory?

[jhull]

Hi Brian,

It looks as if you might have one of those defective MacBook keyboards, and I would recommend taking it in to your nearest Apple Genius. Your excessive use of ALL CAPS is super obnoxious.

Not to mention your post itself.

I will reach out to published Authors about DEEP LITERARY THEME THEORY AND I WILL LET YOU KNOW WHAT I HEAR FROM THEM.

[MWollaeger]

I suggest we all take a look at this page, because I think this is what's going on.

[Lakis]

Yeah, this occurred to me a bit after my last post. And I felt silly.

It's usually pretty obvious when responding to something is a waste of time. Hard not to take the bait though, especially if hanging out on the forums is one of your preferred ways to procrastinate writing.

[mlucas]

I suggest we all take a look at this page, because I think this is what's going on.

Well I was going to tell you guys to go easy on the A.I. bot. It's just learning the basics, including proper caps usage, and we know from Ex Machina that if we're not careful such interactions will end in tragedy.

EDIT: on second though, Ex Machina is telling us that being sensitive to the A.I. is what leads to failure, so have at it.

[GetSchwifty]

He lives on this page as nevil.

http://johnguycollick.com/software-for-writers-dramatica-pro/

[jhull]

Thanks for pointing this out - left a comment there to correct the insanity that is this Neville

[GetSchwifty]

Always willing to chip in, in the unending battle of Good vs Neville.

[MWollaeger]

I didn't read through everything he said, but not all of it was bonkers.