Rogue One, thoughts?

questions
#2

I’ve seen Rogue One once and so these are my first impressions

SPOILERS

I really liked Rogue One and felt that it is 100% a Star Wars movie, whereas, The Force Awakens wasn’t. Even though I liked that movie as well, just not as much as this one.

The plot development seemed like a very logical progression of events. It did skip around a lot at the beginning but it was simple enough to understand what was happening.

While I do feel that the MC throughline was thin, the IC throughline had a little bit more going for it. The arcs were there and felt complete. Cassian’s change from rebel henchmen to rebel hero was a nice arc if being a little flimsy at times. The relationship felt resolved. Jyn’s throughline felt resolved.

One thing that will slow your narrative to a crawl is having all of your characters disagreeing over every decision made. You get 2-3 people with different POV’s say what they have to say, someone wins and you move on. Plus there are also sidekick characters that support what is happening no matter what. Maybe they could have done more with the disagreeable factions. I have a feeling it could have carried more weight but we got the gist of it, that the fear of going against the Empire is growing, even among the higher ranks.

Saw was given a flash drive and he wasn’t sure what was on it. Instead of opening it willy nilly (possibly giving away his location) he used the octo-alien to read his mind, to find out if Bodhi was lying.

I believe the Jyn’s story started when she was rescued from the prisoner escort. It was shortly after that she was given a mission and a personal goal.

Additional Thoughts:
Death Star destruction was amazing and far more realistic.
The space battles were epic.
I really liked how the force was used in this story.
I thought Vader’s scenes were great and they did him justice at the end.
K2SO was very funny multiple times.
This film clutched the ending. This felt like a complete film

#3

it’s strange that Cassian changes from rebel henchmen to a rebel hero, which I agree he does, when Jyn also changes from apathetic to empire (“not a problem if you don’t look up”) to trying to convince the rebel leadership about “fighting a rebellion based on hope”, a phrase/perspective she adopted from Cassian. Would have been more solid if Jyn was always a little rogue one, and the developments of the OS redirect her rebellious energy toward a larger cause (like a steadfast growth). Instead, I think they muddled her in the rewrites. The story doesn’t add up emotionally, which i think is a sign it doesn’t adds up from a Dramatica perspective either. In any case, I’m curious for a Rogue One breakdown/ how-to-fix-it? @jhull?

#4

I think I’m in the same boat. Star Wars will always appeal to me through sheer force of setting, but thinking critically about the plot, I’m not sure what to derive from it. What really was Jyn’s arc? What made her important as a character besides her connections to her “fathers?” How much would the story have changed if she hadn’t been in it at all? And what was the big climactic choice that led to success rather than failure? Giving the gun to K2S0? Cassian taking the shot so that Jyn could escape? I love how they ended the movie basically minutes before the start of Episode IV, but… yeah, despite cleaving to the Hero’s Journey to a T, I never really got much of a sense of story at all. :unamused:

#5

I’ve always felt like SW was a fantasy rather than sci fi. It’s much more about LOTR in space than technology.

I didn’t see much of a GAS in Rogue One, but there were some lines that felt tailor made from Dramatica. “Save the rebellion. Save the dream,” mixed with “Rebellions are built on hope” screams of a hope vs dreams thematic conflict, but I didn’t feel that theme expressed throughout. And then the part about taking a chance, and the next one and the next until we win or there are no more chances seems a clear way to tell the audience to expect an optionlock rather than a time lock.

I thought the story (or tale, I guess) was good on its own while adding to the OS and backstory of the original trilogy.

#6

Pretty sure this was to wipe out Krennic and any evidence that anyone other than Tarkin had anything to do with the Death Star.

Personally, I absolutely loved the film. Saw it twice on opening weekend and am trying to figure out ways to see it again this week. The last sequence was a 35 year dream come true.

That said - Rogue One is a tale, not a complete story. There were inklings of it between Jyn and Cassian, but as someone mentioned–this was likely something Gilroy, who is an amazing writer/director, tried to get in there but just couldn’t make it work out with everything else in there.

Was kind of confused as to the point of her Main Character Throughline - very distancing in that I wasn’t sure exactly what she was struggling with. Cassian was cool and had tons of potential, but got lost along the way.

I felt like character development stopped about 2/3 of the way through and then it was one epic battle with lots of cool old friends coming back into the picture. (Gold Leader!)

Either way - it was super fun and a great example of wonderful filmmaking without an effective narrative.

#7

Glad you’re talking about the film. I loved it. Some elements felt right on in terms of expressing themes. I was trying to figure out whether the MC was change or steadfast. That’s where her unclear concern comes into play. It seemed set up that she’d be fending for herself without a father figure. She makes one quip, I believe to Cassian, towards the climax that it was the first time someone (he) was there to help her. Was Cassian the IC? I’m guessing her father was part of her MC. The android seemed like a skeptic character. “Trust” and faith seemed important in this story’s OS. Even the android wanting to tag along, but the others not having faith he will be able to help them.

#8

Been holding off reading anything about Rogue One until I saw it. Woo hoo - just did!

Great visiting that universe again - though I did feel that it was quite weak on a few of the through lines.

Did notice a huge Save the Cat moment along with the Refusal of the Call - which made me groan a little. Was hoping that the story trajectory broke out of that mould quickly. Enjoyed it thoroughly though.

#9

There were a number of things that kept me from liking this as much as I wanted to, perhaps none bigger than the execution of the central premise: stealing the plans for the Death Star and, despite all the fanservice bits, the failure to capitalize on A New Hope’s beginning where Darth Vader tells Princess Leia “You are a traitor and a Rebel spy!”.

As a result, the film didn’t have any real espionage or caper flare to it and settled for some unlikely “intergalactic library/city hall” to barnstorm which, ironically, seemed to be condoning the early days of pirating on Napster and uploading/downloading files illegally. It’s just one of many head-scratching decisions that defied logic, logic in this case being one would think the place to acquire blueprints for a functioning Death Star would be, well, the Death Star itself. Everything about the location used felt forced (pun intended), right down to some force field opening above the planet that required yadda yadda yadda. I think the narrative could have been a tense thriller for the first half in acquiring the plans, then the last half where it’s about escaping with them which could have easily involved the same type of big, climatic battle with the ending as is.

The other bits, right from the start, included such things as Krennic’s arrival to bring Galen Erso to work on the Death Star. Sure, it looks cinematic with these Black Deathtroopers striding ominously forward with Krennic’s contrasting white cape fluttering in the wind, but I couldn’t help be reminded of human nature and wondering had these fellows stopped at the local mall, would they have parked three shopping plazas away and walked? Of course I’m being sarcastic, but it was one of those little things that made me say “Why?”, along with Galen’s wife’s death or Saw Gerrera’s inexplicable “I’m tired of running” and giving up bit. It just didn’t ring true and all seemed to aim for hollow/forced emotions (coincidently I found the whole rather emotionally uninvolving).

There were bits I did enjoy, particularly the decision handling the cast of characters, and overall didn’t find it bad at all per se, just something that fell short of its promise - especially with a lot of scenes cut from early trailers which gives some idea of how much tinkering went on (I’d really love to know how much Gilroy’s influence changed the film and where it stood prior.)

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#10

I concur. The film felt flat for me. The dismal attempts at making me care about Jyn Erso felt forced. @JBarker has said the rest. Not a terrible movie, but not one I want to rewatch any time soon.

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#11

I think there probably was a good film in there but it’s mostly been edited out. I think what was released has a number of plots that feel inconsequential.

I think what I would have liked is a theme of coming together for the greater good, despite past grievances.

Saw Gerrera plays a very small part in the film, I would have liked to see him rejoin the rebellion at the end to help with the attack. Even better if it is his band that attacks Scarif with the Rebellion joining him later, despite their distaste at his tactics.

There could be growth for Bodhi too, who despite being tortured remains to see through what he started.

I saw a comment chain here that suggested Cassian should have killed Jyn’s father. The fall out of that could have fed into this theme too - despite wanting vengeance Jyn puts it aside and accepts Cassian’s help to get the plans.

#12

I enjoyed the film as is, but definitely felt like there were the ghosts of some old story lines in there.

I think I saw on imdb that an older draft had Saw Gerrera training Jyn Erso and that they may have actually filmed a scene where vader cuts off his legs. I definitely would have liked to see more of that story along with a more fleshed out theme.

#13

Wow. I agree with so much of this…but still loved it!

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#14

Save the Rebellion…Save the Dream! Your podcasts are the best Jim!

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#15

Just saw it. Definitely fell flat for me, as others have said.

I didn’t dislike it, it was fun, but I never really connected with it. There were too many moments where I was like “Whoa look at this awesome battle, X-Wings, Y-Wings, Gold Leader – so why don’t I care? Why doesn’t it seem to matter?” Or they kept using the word hope but it didn’t seem to mean much, like much of the film it was just window dressing.

Probably my expectations were too high (expecting a complete story or at least a strong MC throughline). I did love the droid character though. He was awesome, funny, and perfectly Star Wars!

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#16

Cora, really, really great thoughts in your opening post. I totally agree with the science fiction vs. space fantasy stuff you said, and I do love how they’ve tried to keep the technology (especially the displays) the same as 70s even though sometimes it makes you want to laugh (“Oh crap we only got the super-low-res Vic-20 version of the plans! These are useless!”). You’ve got a great feel for Star Wars and I’m saying that as someone with the last name of Lucas (no relation unfortunately) who grew up in the 80s! LOL

Go back in time and let a Dramatica Story Expert review the screenplay? I’m only half kidding; I definitely think a more complete story would’ve helped viewers like you and me connect to the story. I like a lot of your ideas about trying to make the different sub-plots and acts have some continuity in themes, and making the MC’s throughline and Steadfast Resolve a lot stronger. When they all died at the end I really should have cared more, and I think stronger subjective throughlines (MC, IC, RS) would have done that.

#17

Great points all. Recently read it’s basically a WW2 flick with all the outdated technology. The Star Wars world is more about morality than man’s relationship with tech.

#18

After seeing it twice, I believe Jyn’s dad is the steadfast IC. Jyn & Cassian are co-MC’s that change in sequence like dominoes falling.

Cassian’s co-MC change: clearly occurs when he doesn’t shoot Jyn’s dad & the bow on the package is when he tells Jyn he believes her before the big ending battle; motivated by influence mainly from Jyn (with some help from blind force-influenced guy).

Jyn’s co-MC change: less clear of a single change moment; could have occurred internally during the hologram message from dad; at the latest, when she rallies the troops at the rebel base; motivated by mom’s trust message to young Jyn, dad’s hologram message, & Saw’s pleas when she sees him again as an adult in Jedha.

My proposed story form is identical to Star Wars’ storyform. Trust goes both ways.

I dispute that it’s a tale. Sure, the storyform isn’t as fully developed as Lone Star or something grand, but I think it has much more of a developed storyform than a lot of examples on the site (e.g. Shrek, Ghostbusters, Philadelphia Experiment, Into the Blue). Rogue One doesn’t feel as anywhere near as incomplete as Taken or Jurassic Park.

#19

Or if the co-MC idea is too wacky (after all, Jyn & Cassian are pretty different), then perhaps it has a dynamic like The Verdict. The patient/family influenced Paul Newman’s change earlier, then that is followed by Paul Newman influencing Charlotte Rampling’s change later.

#20

You have me wanting to watch it again now. I don’t remember a lot of it at this point. Was there a scene that shows Jyn’s Judgment?

#21

The storyform of Star Wars tells us that the Goal was not specifically to achieve the destruction of the Death Star (Obtaining), but rather, for the rebels to show that they were capable of fighting back. Although some of Rogue One seemed to be about Doing, like getting the various alliance members to join in, it seemed to have more of an Obtaining goal with capturing the Death Star plans. So if it has a storyform, I don’t think it’s the same as Star Wars.

Like @Gregolas I have trouble remembering much of the plot. (I can remember Ghostbusters much better even though it’s been twenty years since the last time I watched it!)

For Jyn’s Resolve, you want to compare her from the beginning to the end, and I do agree she seems to have changed her perspective – at the end being willing to die knowing she made a difference to the rebellion, vs. not wanting to be involved with the rebellion at all.

But what seems to really be missing is the Steadfast Influence Character (or characters, or force of influence). I’m not sure where that would come from?

Also, another cool thing would be if you could identify a common problematic element that both Jyn and the overall story share (and maybe Cassian too, if you support his being an MC). I have one in mind, but it’s probably jumping to conclusions so I’ll hold off and see what you think. And more importantly, what would you say the 4 throughlines are each about?

Although I don’t feel Rogue One is complete, I’d be happy to see it more the way you do, if only to appreciate it a little more!

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