Why I'm weak on Story Limit

writing
#2

Yes! Chris is amazing at this. I try to get him to rattle it off at each meeting when I am there. Check out Roman Holiday —I rember us getting deep into the limit for that one. Also, The Americans.

Have you tried writing out the Limit for each OS based on the Driver? I know you are really good at getting the Story Goal nailed down. So, you might start with that first. And think of the spatial locks on the Story Goal beset by the Driver.

But, I am with you and wished you are at those meetings so we could come up with a clear way of doing what Chris does with it. Next time, I will ask HOW he is doing it.

@Chris, if you have time, we would love to know what your process is for doing that. I’m thinking my personal struggle is identifying the climax that the lock even creates. Is it just that each signpost has a climax and the overall story does too that are all tied in with the lock? And, then how do you identify them? How does the conflict create the climax based on the smoke/fire definition of conflict for Dramatic?

Thanks!
Brian

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#3

I posted a bit more on Limit in the other thread because it is about the MBTI stacks for Holistics. But, I think the story limit issue is because you are a Holistic over Linear (N over S) for your secondary and tertiary functions. It is even harder for me as I have it First and Fourth. But, Linear dominates just observe the limits and report them while we are too busy searching for patterns already and can’t be bothered with clocks as much.

#4

Thanks Brian. I was going to say I’m more interested in figuring out how to encode satisfying Limits into my own stories, than I am in being able to analyze them well.

But, I guess getting better at analyzing them will also help me understand and lead to using them better in my writing, so I will take your advice!

I think you meant to notify @chuntley on this part:

#5

Thanks! Still learning the ropes on the forum. So, I think breaking down a few known stories together will help us both solve our problem. It would help to use Chris’ examples, try and do a few of our own and then encode some.

What if we use some really silly examples, for a minute, like the Bachelor and Hell’s Kitchen because they are mostly OS.

In the Bachelor, it is the Roses and Hell’s Kitchen it is the Jackets. But, don’t the optionlocks change shape with the signposts even though these examples are super limited? For example, Hell’s Kitchen switches to black jackets in the third or fourth signpost. Likewise, in the Bachelor they have hometowns and Fantasy sweets in the third or fourth signpost.

Another example might be Law and Order:

Chasing down the wrong leads - law
Pinning it on the wrong guy - law
Chasing down the right leads - order
Seeing if the right guy can be caught - order

Most of the episodes are the same. So, it should be easier to ID the shape of the options locking them into climaxes. For me, if I could see the shape of the options, it would be easier to encode it. What about you? I’ve also seen people work backward from their climax. Do you have a climax in mind? Can we break down the large Climax into four smaller ones? -I think the answer lies in there.

I think we need to work down from the story goal or up from the climax.

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#6

I like where you’re going with this, but I’m not sure if know Hell’s Kitchen or The Bachelor well enough to comment on those. Law and Order might work but for me it would work better with a particular episode (and it’s been a long time since I watched that show).

I wonder if we could concentrate on known complete narratives that we happen to know well. What did you think of my Star Wars comments above? The Empire’s different options to find the rebel base seem pretty clear and I think might have been mentioned in Dramatica material somewhere. Do you think the good-guys are also trying (and running out of) options to get the plans to the rebel base?

I’m pretty familiar with The Princess Bride so let’s look at that for a minute.

  • Humperdink has a plot to frame Guilder for the murder his princess bride, so that the people of Florin will conceive of Guilder as their enemy. The Goal is stop his plot.
  • The climax is definitely the wedding at the end.
  • The options seem to have to do with different ways of murdering and rescuing Buttercup. Humperdink tries to have Vizzini kill her, but when that fails, he decides to murder her on his wedding night. Westley tries to rescue her by going through the Fire Swamp but when that fails, he has to come back from the dead and rescue her on her wedding night.

Is there anything more to say there? I guess it’s important that the idea of the wedding is introduced in Act 1, when Humperdink announced Buttercup as his bride-to-be. But what’s the Optionlock then, the different ways of murdering Buttercup?

Maybe, since marrying Humperdink is a kind of death for her anyway (she was even about to commit suicide once married), we can equate wedding = death *. So the climax, the wedding, is really the final Option to kill Buttercup – or to save her from being killed.

So maybe that’s the Optionlock here: running out of options to save Buttercup from being murdered. (Or from the antagonist perspective: running out of options to murder Buttercup and frame Guilder for it.)

* This is supported further by how, when the wedding happens and they seem to be married, there’s a moment where you feel like the good-guys lost. Buttercup is about to commit suicide, and this is cleverly made to be simultaneous with Inigo taking Rugen’s dagger. “I’m sorry father. I tried.” Only when Westley reminds us that Buttercup never said “I do” do we realize there’s still hope.

#7

Can I suggest also looking for how the stories you look at give the limit to the audience? For instance, I haven’t looked for this info while watching Star Wars,and I can’t think of any instance where some character says ‘these are our options for rebelling against the empire’. The closest I can think of without having watched it in a while is ‘help me, Obi Wan. You’re my only hope’. And I haven’t watched much L&O but can’t imagine a character saying ‘we have to chase down the wrong lead’. I imagine it’s more like ‘we have two leads. The one we followed first was wrong’.

Timelocks Always Fixed?
#8

Great idea, Greg. Here are some “communicate limit to the audience” moments in the first half of Star Wars…

Act 1/4:

VADER: I have traced the Rebel spies to her. Now she is my only link to find their secret base!

Act 1/4 (showing one of the Rebel’s Options, not so much the Limit itself – but you had the right spot!):

LEIA: I have placed information vital to the survival of the Rebellion into the memory systems of this R2 unit. My father will know how to retrieve it. You must see this droid safely delivered to him on Alderaan. This is our most desperate hour. Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi, you’re my only hope.

Act 2/4:

TARKIN: This bickering is pointless. Lord Vader will provide us with the location of the Rebel fortress by the time this station is operational. We will then crush the Rebellion with one swift stroke.

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#9

If you identify what type of limit you have and the nature of the specific limitation as is regards your story, it’s relatively simple. Once a threshold is met with the Limit, a Driver naturally follows, otherwise you’re covering territory that you’ve already exhausted. The limit can be used as a trigger for a Story Driver. It need not be so causally connected, but the driver often happens in loose proximity to a limit indicator.

TIMELOCKS:

Timelocks primarily come in two flavors: Deadlines and fixed amounts of time. The key for timelocks is that you must explicitly indicate the temporal movement toward the limit. If it’s a deadline, such as a date, then you need to reveal dates closing in on the final date. If it’s an amount of time, such as 24 hours, then you need to reveal time indicators (e.g. clocks, timers, countdowns, etc.) counting down toward the limit.

It seems that there is a storytelling convention where the amount of story time (not screen time or pages) between the timelock indicators tend NOT to be linear, but more like geometric series, where the earlier limit indicators span far greater amounts of time than those nearing the limit.

OPTIONLOCKS

Optionlocks tend to come in two different flavors as well: limited options and limited space (think ‘road trips’ from A to E through B, C and D), which is why we originally called them Spacelocks (glad we changed THAT label before we released v1.0!).

Like all limits, they can be highly specific or more generalized. From a writing perspective, you should at least be aware of what the options are so that they are in your story and may be identified by the audience in retrospect.

For example, one story limit may be as specific as having three wishes. Once the last wish is used, the story is primed for the final conflict. Another story may require a number of conditions to be met that may not be clearly defined so long as once one has been met or exhausted, the story moves on to another of the limited options.

The limited options in soft-edged optionlocks are frequently more obvious after the fact than during the story. Sure, there were only a limited number of ways the Empire could locate the Rebel base to blow it up, but we did not know what those options were until they were presented to us as an audience: scout the old Rebel hangouts, convince Princess Leia to give up the location, track the Millennium Falcon to the Rebel base, bring the Death Star to Rebel base and…climax! This is one way to look at the optionlock in Star Wars. Another would be tied to the Death Star plans: Get the data to Obi-wan Kenobi on Tattooine; get the plans to Alderaan; get the plans to the rebel base; figure out how to exploit the plans…climax!

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Timelocks Always Fixed?
Zootopia question
#10

Thanks! That is super helpful. Am I on the right track here? I went back and watched both Roman Holiday analysis and Melanie’s you tube video before doing this.

Achieving Superiority over the Matrix

(Control The Matrix)

Lock
-Driver

S0 - back story

The One is dormant (no optionlock established)
-The One is detected (Inciting Incident)

S1

Control Thomas Anderson
-Thomas Anderson takes the Red Pill

S2

Control Neo’s Mind
-Neo assumes falsely he is not the one

S3
Control Zion’s Access Codes
-Neo begins to believe he may be The One and decides to stand his ground

S4

Control Resurrection
-Neo decides to be The “superior” One

OS Climax of Throughline

Control The Sentinels when people are jacked in
-Neo Chooses Love over staying in the Matrix as Morphous uses the EMP to gain control in the real world.

Epilogue

System Failure – A world without The Superiority of the Matrix

@mlucas

I chose this because I know you are super familiar with The Matrix having fixed the Story Goal.

I specifically wrote these so it isn’t from the POV of protagonist or antagonist since the lock should lock both sides in conflict. Just as a race finish line locks in the tortoise and the hare.

How did I do?

#11

Using the story that I shared the PSR for, The Far End of the Black, I used a bit of foreshadowing to convey the timelock. As you paraphrased Jim, it’s important to parse it throughout the story naturally so the audience has an understanding of both the stakes and the consequences. For my story, it was foreshadowed via a character who had become infected with a virus and his gradual demise (and suffering) is shown from sped-up video of him in his quarantined cell.

This gives the characters, and more importantly the audience, a sense of “how long” which, in turn, gives them a stick for which they can measure progress by (and doing this leads to a more engaged audience as they’re attuned to not only what’s going on, but why.) As the story progresses and the main character’s scientist wife has inoculated herself with half an incomplete antidote that we later find out was tested on the quarantined character, we know how long she has. Causing some dissonance with this is the fact that to slow the progression of the virus’s effects requires blood-sacrifice. Since they’re traveling in a small band, their options are limited to themselves.

The effects of the timelock are ultimately conveyed visually by the scientists deterioration (a scene here of losing a fingernail, another coughing up blood and on and on until the effects get much worse.) Each reminds the audience time is running out - BUT it’s also predicated by options and how many are left (and willing) to self-sacrifice for the sake of humanity.

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#12

I guess it’s the soft-edged optionlocks that I like. A clearly stated optionlock right up front can sometimes give a story that feeling of…not sure how to put it, that feeling of “I am definitely experiencing a story”, like you can see one of the seams where it was crafted. It’s not always like that, but it can be. These soft-edged optionlocks that Chris described feel more natural to me, like your discovering the options as you go.

Curious George was on when I got home from work and it seems that CG has an approach where each option is very clearly stated, but only right before that option is explored. It’s like “Can George recreate the elephants painting? He tried to draw a line, but it wasn’t thick enough. Can he look at the brushes and find a way to make a thicker line? He doesn’t have the right color. Can he use red, blue, yellow, and white to make green and lavender paint?” I like the idea of that. It kind of feels like coming up with a plan as you go rather than right up front and allows the author and characters some flexibility to deal with the unexpected events.

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#13

FWIW, I don’t really think of the rose pedals as the actual optionlock of Beauty and the Beast. I think the true options are in the realm of “What are we going to do to get this girl to stay here slash fall in love with the Beast?”

The pedals are just a way of putting them in our face.

Here is my persnickety reading on that: the true, Platonic version of the story has a Timelock – the witch knows how long the Prince has when she casts the spell (I imagine) and the flower is running down like a kitchen timer. But, we don’t get that story. We get a different telling that doesn’t go into the timelock, but looks at the story from the perspective that needs an Optionlock.

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#14

Hi Brian,
I gave The Matrix some thought. To me, the Limit that’s in place from the beginning really seems to be something about “facing the Agents”.

  • The first scene with Trinity shows how they always run from agents.
  • Later, Morpheus fights Agent Smith in order to delay him enough so the others can escape, but then gets his ass handed to him.
  • When Trinity and Neo go on the attack (“Guns. Lots of guns.”) they do really well, Trinity even “kills” an agent after Neo demonstrates his bendy-limbo-dodge. It’s enough to rescue Morpheus but they still have to flee from the Agents.
  • Neo stands his ground in the subway station, beating Agent Smith when the train comes.
  • Finally, Neo is able to withstand being shot and able to jump bodies, taking over the Agent’s body.

So we’re basically going through the different options of dealing with Agents until we get to that final destination of having to stand your ground, which was foreshadowed from the beginning. In fact you can combine the Story Limit and Goal to say: When it’s finally time to stand up to the Agents, you better hope you’ve gained superiority over the Matrix.

Does that make sense? Does anyone else have any other ideas?

From the antagonists’ point of view, the Limit might be something to do with tempting the good-guys to give up / give in. (They try with Neo, succeed with Cypher, fail with prisoner Morpheus, and fail with Neo.)

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#15

I think that is similar to what I have listed except that I wrote it from the OS POV instead of the Protagonist. I may have swapped the OS throughline and the last signpost. So, I cab rewrite them. But, I think it is important to note that the limit exists for both sides regardless of who set it. Like if it were a bomb with a ticking clock for example or 24 hours until meteor impact or a one mile race or controlling the news of an AWOL princess. It is the last example, the soft edge ones that we were having the most trouble with.

So, I don’t think it is about the agents anymore than in Roman Holiday it is about the Princess’ guards or the photos of her exploits. It is about the thing that limits everyone’s options.

In the Matrix we have the Agents attmpting to suppress The One so people become batteries (Consequence) and the Zionists attempting to achieve superiority over The Matrix (Goal).

Regardless of the side, the decisions drivers and the limit are hand in hand like Chris said. So, which side can gain control over Thomas Anderson before he makes a decision is the Act 1 option lock. Once he chooses the red pill, the agents go to plan B and the Zionists attampt to free Neo’s mind. This ends at the midpoint where Neo decides he is not The One. This essentially allows the agents to go after the codes by capturing Morpheus.

Paraphrase:

Neo
Are you trying to say I can dodge bullets?

Morpheus
No, because when you’re ready, you won’t have to.

I think the bigger issue here is the Drivers as they close out a ring of options.

I’m starting to picture these like concentric circles.

The Roman Holiday analysis really helped a lot because the reporter and the Princess/guards are both dealing with the news of her AWAL getting prigressively louder. Just like petals in Beauty and the Beast. Or roses on the Bachelor. On the bachelor it is each rose disappared by the show over time and the bachelor wants to give it to the right one and the competitors want to win one.

For the Matrix, it is all about controlling The One. How many ways can we get The One to either step up or step down depending on what team we play for.

The climax for the OS is when Neo Dies and pops back up again. Right? Once they kill him and he ressurects, the only option they have left is to send the Sentinels to kill him in the real world.

The Sentinel business is confusing is this RS climax? Is it Signpost 4 climax? Is it a trilogy beat? But, it is setup super early. So, is it part of the OS climax or the final driver?

Thoughts?

You know, I think all the soft edge ones are basically wrestling matches. (Also akin to Rock Climbing —my teo favorite sports. — Sorry, Crew team :wink: —You’re third)

I was thinking about my HS Wrestling career and realized it is an optionlock and a timelock even though the matches are timed.

http://www.yorkvillewrestlingclub.com/page/show/388068-how-a-wrestling-match-works

“Wrestling matches do not end in a draw or tie. If at the end of three regular periods, the match is tied up, then the match goes into overtime to break the tie. During the overtime period, the wrestler who scores the first point(s) will be declared the winner. There is no rest between the regular match and the overtime period. The overtime period will begin immediately following the three regular periods with both wrestlers starting in neutral position. If no winner is determined by the end of the one minute overtime period, a second overtime period for 30 seconds will take place.
The 30 second period begins with the wrestler that scored first in the match choosing either the top or bottom position. If there is no score, the referee will toss a disk to determine which wrestler can choose their position to be top or bottom. The wrestler who scores the first point(s) in this 30-second period will be declared the winner. If no score occurs during this final period, then the wrestler in the top position will be declared the winner.”

If the time were unlimited and all wrestling matches were street fights, they would go into death, submission or some other optionlock end.

Essentially, the optionlock is wrestling over The One’s power in the Matrix —who will control it. The same as wrestling over the News/The Princess in Roman Holiday —who will cobtrol that.

Finally, as I’m breaking through over here…I think Holistic people hate tied matches and stalemates. That is part of why timelocks are so annoying to us. They seem so arbitrary. Somehow imposed by an external force.

#16

I agree the petals are just an option lock clock. The clock in a time lock is also not the lock. It is the time itself…map vs territory. In fact, the clocks could be off :wink:

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#17

Hmm. I feel like the climax is brought about when Neo stands his ground against Agent Smith. It’s like they’ve tried everything else, and that’s the only option left. Neo dying and coming back is only the very end of the climax.

I understand you want to show a common Limit no matter what side of the Goal the characters are on, but I’m not sure it’s always possible. Still, maybe we’re closer than we think:

  • Those for the Goal are limited by their options for dealing with Agents. Once they reach the last option (standing your ground and fighting them) the Limit is reached and the climax begins.
  • Those against the Goal are limited by their options for dealing with the Zionists. They try catching them, subverting Neo, subverting Cypher to capture Morpheus and interrogate him, and finally fighting Neo is their last option.

So it’s two sides of the same coin. It’s pretty close to your “controlling the One” but it feels to me like there’s a lot more going on than just that (but if you consider the Zionists to be the One’s prophets/disciples, then maybe it’s the same).

To me, this is a total Limit moment:

Morpheus: I won’t lie to you, Neo. Every single man or woman who has stood their ground, everyone who has fought an agent has died. But where they have failed, you will succeed.

###About the Sentinels
I actually felt like the Sentinel thing at the end was the only flaw in the film; because it was mistimed it felt over the top. There was all this angst in the real world ship about whether Neo would make it back before they had to EMP, but meanwhile Neo is toying with the Agents in the Matrix. The approaching Sentinels added good tension leading up to it, but once Neo became invincible, the conflict of the Sentinels should have been done with.

Haha! I just looked up the OS Catalyst and it’s Approach! That’s hilarious I called them approaching Sentinels, and the real tension is from how Trinity and Morpheus approach/time the EMP to outmaneuver the Sentinels. So the problem with those darn Sentinels is that the Goal is reached as soon as Neo demonstrates his superiority over the Matrix, and it’s time to lay off the Catalyst once the Goal is reached!

#18

I love your Catlyst comments. I think we are disagreeing about two points. One is I definitely believe the limit is always for both sides and affects everyone. As a Mathematician —we do this all the time with symbolic logic—one operator makes all the rest —like you can create every transitor gate type with one NOR gate (CPU Engineering). I’m trying to appeal to your Physics background. ;). But, the goal and the conseguence come from the OS point of view which doesn’t care who wins or which side we are on since it is super objective.

I’m still working on my analysis for Manchester by the Sea, but the optionlock there has to do with all the different ways to support for the guardianship. And when the guardianship is over, the movie is over.

It doesn’t matter which side of the Guardianship we are on because the limit has to do with those stakes. I think the limit is likely even more wrapped up in the consequence than the goal as I consider it more.

Second point of disagreement. I don’t think the Matrix is over until Neo survives the physical death of the EMP as well as the Spiritual death inside the Matrix. We actually don’t know if he makes it out in time or if he is just able to overcome it due to his power/status as The One—this is nitpicky…but, it is similar to the theological story of Abraham and Isaac and their traditions where Isaac is ressurected in a similar manner after his sacrifice at Abraham’s hands.

I believe there is a movie about a Jewish Neo Nazi with that kid from T2 that explores this. But, I just know from my time in Divinity School, that both explanations would apply to that and this narratively even if the popular view is survival. But, for me, the last option for the agents/sentinnels/The AI is to kill Neo in the real world and it isn’t over if he dies in there because people will atill become only batteries without Neo. Also, exiting The Matrix was super hard in the past. And this bookends the climax since Agent Smith shoots the phone to trap him there to begin the showdown. It doesn’t so much matter what causes the climax to start, but what options are left to resolve the conflict. That EMP survival is the period on the end of the sentence before the aftermath. So, the final option is to kill Neo in the real world by dividing his spirit from his body and causing him to die.

Morpheus says, “The body cannot live without the mind” —this for me is the biggest limit of the film and since Neo is fully computer code and fully human as we discover later (like The God-Man is Fully God and Fully Man in Catholic Theology) it definitely seems to fit the author’s intent to a T.

The Limit as a whole can also probably be stated holistically as such. Like in highlander —“There can be only one” :rofl:

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#19

I think we’re pretty close to agreement, and I’m certainly open to your ideas about The Matrix’s limit.

What would help me is if you could express The Matrix’s Limit in terms of “Before X”, as in “before time runs out” (any Timelock story) or “before the Empire reaches the rebel base” (Star Wars).

And then show how that is communicated to the audience throughout the film.

#20

We’re getting close. I like the before syntax idea.

The Zionists must achieve superiority over The Machines before the they trash The One.

Trash/delete/kill/recycle—In film school we get super specific about the verb in the log line.

The more I consider this, it feels like the Limit and the Driver is the Rules of te World in film school jargon.

#21

From the Antagonist POV

The Machines must maintain their human battery farm and shut down a disruptive Mesiah before he achieves superiority over them.

More computer humor…:rofl: