YA Supernatural Novel, help and guidance please

writing
#162

Well, to be honest I’m not sure where this change in Luke takes place. The MC throughline is certainly a good guess for some of this stuff, though whatever influence Baldur wields on Luke probably belongs to a different throughline (IC or RS).

The summaries you provided for the MC signposts are hard for me to follow. I’m not getting a strong sense of a “throughline” here, so it’s hard for me to follow what the links are between these events.

To me, the way you described signpost 3 sounds most like Impulsive responses/Preconscious, because it’s a question of trust in the self and in one’s ability to tolerate distress. With that said, I’d need a more thorough description of how you see the MC’s arc in this story to be able to help you break it into signposts.

#163

Obtaining can be a process. The definition explicitly states, “Whether it refers to a mental or physical state or process, obtaining describes the concept of attaining.” Note the words in italics.

#164

"Learning describes the process of acquiring knowledge. It is not the knowledge itself. "

#165

Actually, you can’t. Again, Understanding has to do with meaning, not knowledge.
The definition of Understanding states, “Understanding is different from knowledge. From knowledge one gets awareness, from understanding, one gets meaning”

#166

Yes, but how would you write the Signposts? If you believe that some of that stuff you mentioned belongs in the RS or IC, then how would you characterize those RS or IC Signposts AS WELL AS how would you characterize the MC Signposts for what you mentioned?

#167

Well, if that analogy isn’t helpful for you, then by all means ignore it! Like I said, there’s a lot to learn.

In the above example, I was using the word “knowledge” in a layman’s understanding of the term. “Knowledge” does have a dramatica-specific definition (which is the one being referenced in your quote), but that wasn’t what I was referring to here. Apologies if I confused you!

My point is simply that Understanding is more a state-oriented concern than Learning is, which by comparison is a process-oriented concern. Are there instances where Understanding functions like a process? Sure! But it’s probably not helpful to think of Understanding primarily as a process, at least not when it comes to Dramatica.

#168

I think some examples might help here…

Learning
Say you have a Concern (or Signpost) of Learning: “Studying Dark Magic”.

So that would be about the difficulties that come with going to dark-magic school – maybe the teachers are mean, the dark-magic books in the library are evil and bite your fingers, you have to get up early in the morning, the subject matter is difficult, you don’t have the requisite math skills (who knew dark magic needed so much math?), etc.

It would NOT be about the Dark Magic itself – how evil it is, what you can do with it, etc. That would be Understanding.

Obtaining
I agree with Yellow that Obtaining can certainly be a process. I think what @Audz is trying to say is that obtaining is always focused on some end state or goal, which is what differentiates it from Doing.

#169

Well, YellowSuspenders, it isn’t my story, so I’m sure I don’t know as much about it as you do. My problem here is that you haven’t supplied me enough information to be able to assign the MC signposts with any degree of certainty. If you want me to try to assign those signposts, I’m afraid I’ll need to ask that you elaborate on your character’s arc. Otherwise, there’s not much I can do.

#170

Exactly my point, Mike! sorry if I wasn’t making it very clearly!

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#171

Doesn’t that violate Chekhov’s gun? Having the characters do something without a purpose is like setting a gun on the table in the beginning of the story and then never using it.

#172

With Doing, the purpose is the doing. Like imagine a character who just loves biking and just wants with all his heart to be biking. His goal isn’t to get some particular bike, or to win some race, it’s just the biking itself. I’m sure you can find things like this in your own life. Or, watch the movie Breaking Away – a great example of MC Concern of Doing.

Doing can also be like, showing you’re capable of doing something well. That’s why the Story Goal of Star Wars (1977) is Doing – the rebels needed to show they could fight back.

#173

To help get things back on track, here is my understanding of the throughlines. (I hope it looks okay … feel free to correct and clarify.)

OS: TDE’s plot to steal the relic and use it to murder incarnates, and to get Loki to come into his evil destiny (all of it to stack the Ragnarok odds in his favour). Along with the efforts to stop TDE.

MC: Luke’s unresolved guilt and grief over his brother’s death, and his subconscious fears that there’s darkness / evil within him (Loki and Loki’s destiny).

IC: Boone/Baldur, who wants/needs Luke’s help so badly he’s willing to ignore the terrible prophecy. Note: I think this throughline needs the most work, or at least clarifying. I’m a bit unclear on the Situation domain for Boone, although I can see the influence on Luke there so it’s probably in good shape.

RS: something to do with being allies and how much they can trust each other, probably. This needs further definition and clarification, but don’t most RS’s? :slight_smile:

I think it would be best to focus on one at a time – probably the OS first, but whatever @YellowSuspenders wants to work with. Speaking of which, question for you Yellow: with the OS signpost order you posted before, Understanding->Obtaining->Learning->Doing, did you know that order requires a Judgment of Bad?

#174

Would this help?

I call this The Long Winter
We start off with a character, Luke, who is essential frozen in place. Ever since he witnessed the death of his little step-brother, he has been trying to earn his right to life. He receives a full-ride to college and immediately goes out and steals a car. This destroys his college opportunity. His step-dad and he live together. Luke has become the affective parent as his step-dad suffers from terrible depression and has done so ever since his son died.
He wakes up one night to discover that his home is under attack by monsters! He races downstairs to where his step-dad is seen prone on the floor, something terrible leaning over him. Luke rushes at the thing and, as he draws nearer, he discovers that it looks like a walking corpse. The thing bursts into a swarm of flies and then recollects itself and charges Luke! Tossing Luke to the floor, it is about to maw him when another teen comes from nowhere and knocks the creature off of Luke. The strange boy and the monster are fighting, but the strange boy has a sword in his hand and is clearly gaining the advantage due to his superior sword play. Luke discovers that there are a few other humans in the room with him. He shoves one out of the way as one of the creatures prepares to attack her, he swings a chair up to catch the creature’s attack, but the chair shatters into toothpicks. Fortunately, the girl has regained her feet in time to shove a dagger into the monster’s gullet. The rune-covered dagger glows and the creature explodes into dust.
When the fight is over, the strange boy who saved him tells him that they need his help. When the boy starts talking about Ragnarok, Luke doesn’t have a clue what he is talking about. The boy is surprised that Luke hasn’t quickened yet. Luke doesn’t want to leave his step-dad, but the boy tells them that more of these creatures are going to come after Luke and his step-dad would be safer the further away he is from Luke.
Luke, not real clear on what is going on, decides to go with the boy and his friends.
On the road, they discuss more about what is going on, but they give each other furtive glances when he asks what makes him so important. Along the way, Boone uses some sort of glow that he projects from his hands to heal any battle wounds.
Later, Boone tells him that the glow he saw is Boone’s wyrd. Its kinda like magic. Luke should search for his own wyrd and, when he finds it, he’ll be able to do magic as well, but not the same as Boone’s. Boone also starts to train him in weapons. The weapons he gives him are covered in runes. They are the only things which will kill some of the creatures they will come across, but they will only be truly effective after Luke discovers his wyrd. “Wyrd” means “fate” or “destiny”, it is part of his true self.
Word comes in that other teenagers have been murdered or can no longer be contacted. Boone tells Luke that they are searching for the murderer so that they can stop him. He says that Luke’s wyrd will help them find the murderer. They arrive in a small camp and Luke realizes that he is disliked there. People are always whispering behind his back. They seem afraid of him.
Luke practices with the sword. Perhaps this is how he can earn his right to live?
He begins going out on missions to try to protect these victims, but the problem is that they are always too late to arrive. They need to get ahead of the murderer. Donny, a friend of Boone’s, eventually tells Luke that he is Loki. Donny does not like Luke being in the camp. Luke is destined to betray them all. Further, he will kill Boone. It doesn’t really matter whether Luke wants to or not, destiny is set in stone. It is part of his true self.
In the camp, he finds and makes good friends with a female shape changer. This shape changer will argue that there is no such thing as destiny. She tries to help him loosen up and enjoy life more. He will also make friends with a female assassin (the girl that saved him back home). This girl argues that there is nothing but destiny.=
Boone tells him that Boone believes that if anybody can dodge their destiny, it is Loki. Further, even if he can’t dodge his destiny, perhaps he can do enough good before that happens so that he can make something good of his life. They need Luke to find his wyrd so that they can use it to find the murderer.
Luke keeps practicing. It is revealed that Luke didn’t just witness his little step-brother falling through the ice. He coaxed the little boy out on the ice. He genuinely thought that the little boy was too small and too light to fall through the ice. He wanted his brother to fetch a baseball which was out there. When he finally does find his wyrd, everybody in the camp gets even more scared of him. One night, he is seen running from Boone’s tent. Word spreads that he has killed Boone. One of the characters in the camp helps him escape. This character is a spy for TDE. Also, the shape changer and the assassin flee with him.
The spy helps them get on their way to meet up with TDE.
TDE eagerly accepts them, believing that, as Luke has embraced his true destiny, he has become corrupted and has killed Boone. In TDE’s home, Luke reveals that he haas not found his wyrd, yet. Luke takes advantage to defeat TDE and reclaim the relic with the help of the shape changer and the assassin, but in the middle of that, he finds himself in a crisis which does cause him to quicken and find his wyrd.
Finally, Boone is discovered to have not been dead, rather this was a ploy. But, Boone tells Luke that just because this was a ploy does not mean that Luke’s destiny doesn’t still lie in front of him. Some day, he will be faced with the fate of possibly killing Boone. Luke finally goes home. But, he realizes that if he is ever going to be ready for what is coming his direction, he can’t live again in a place where he is frozen. Also, being his true self, he’d put his step-dad in danger. So, just as he’s about to open the door, he turns around and walks away.w

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#175

I didn’t notice that. But, I’m not terribly worried about it because I find his judgement to be rather ambiguously bittersweet.

#176

Great summary!

I’m not sure I can see his Luke’s Change Resolve in there, though it may just be the outline is at too high a level. Thinking ONLY of his personal issues and his worldview that’s based on those issues, he needs to change his perspective completely. One part of this is that he would either:

  1. go from an internal problem (Mind or Psychology Domain), to seeing his problems as external.
    Example: Elliot in E.T. goes from being sad and lonely about his father being away and his mother never having time for him, to wanting more than anything to save his new friend and help him get home. (a friend’s troubles are external)
    OR
  2. go from an external problem (Situation or Activity Domain) to seeing his problems as internal.
    Example: Luke Skywalker goes from his crappy situation (wannabe jedi stuck on a loser desert planet), to realizing he needs to be all Zen like Obi-Wan.

Maybe it was just a part you haven’t detailed yet, but I didn’t see how/when Luke resolves his guilt over his step-brother’s death, or how that was tied into his change of perspective about his Loki-self/destiny. By being afraid of becoming “frozen” again and turning around without opening the door, it seems like he hasn’t conquered his fears. If he’s going from Be-er to Do-er, it might make more sense for him to open the door, tell his dad that he was responsible for his step-brother’s death, and say he’s going to try and make things right by choosing his own destiny, fighting for the future, etc.

Of course, another possibility is that this story is just the first chapter, so it’s not complete yet – maybe just the first signpost in a longer storyform.

#177

Yes, YellowSuspenders, that helps tremendously!

First things first, that’s a cool concept, and it sound like you’re off to a great start turning it into a novel! This summary yielded some key information. First of all, Lucas does not know he’s destined to become Loki until the midpoint (which would align very well with an OS signpost 2 of either Learning or Understanding if Luke is your protagonist as well as your MC).

I’d actually put your MC in Situation/Universe instead of Mind/Fixed attitude. After all, what is the source of Luke’s problem? Namely that he is destined by a prophecy to become the god Loki and to betray his fellow NGs. His problem is not one of a faulty mindset-- the prophecy remains in place whether he knows about it or not, let alone whether he approves of it. He’s stuck in a situation he finds unpleasant, first and foremost.

Anyway, this would place your IC in Mind/Fixed Attitude, which again would make a lot of sense. Baldur is convinced that he needs Luke’s help and stops at nothing to get it. His fixed mindset (in spite of what the other NGs want) drives him to pursue Luke’s friendship to such an extent that he persuades Luke to change his ways and fight alongside him.

I think you’re right in assigning Physics/Activity to your OS. This would put your RS in Psychology/Manipulation. This storyline (which needs the most development) consists of how the relationship between these two boys morphs over the time they spend together.

So if I were to assign Signpost orders with all available info, I would do so as follows:

OS Throughline: Reclaiming the Relic

Prologue (Set up characters, where they are from. First fight scene with the monster).

  1. Understanding: Boone and Luke meet. Boone asks for Luke’s help with Ragnarok. Luke doesn’t understand him at all, but chooses to follow him out on the road in hopes of understanding what those creatures are that attacked his step-dad.

  2. Learning: They arrive at the NG camp, where Luke learns that he is automatically distrusted by all the other kids there. He slowly starts to gather information about what it is that makes him special. He learns about wyrds and magic, and is told he has his own wyrd to access. The midpoint arrives when Luke learns that he is destined to become Loki and that he is destined to kill Boone, his newfound companion.

  3. Doing: Luke practices magic in attempts to find his wyrd so that they can use that to locate TDE, but fails to do so. They all fail to catch the murderer in action, despite their best efforts. They get lead to TDE by the spy when the camp grows openly hostile toward Luke and his pals.

  4. Obtaining: Luke reclaims the relic after defeating TDE.

Now, before I get to the MC throughline, I’m going to jump instead to the RS throughline. This is the heart of your story and concerns the way in which Luke is changed by his interactions with Boone. Because the OS is in Physics, we know that the RS is in Psychology/Manipulation. Here is the Signpost order I would create:

  1. Conceiving: Luke meets Boone and for the first time conceives of the fact that there is magic in the world. Boone conceives of the fact that Luke still hasn’t quickened.

  2. Conceptualizing/Developing a Plan: Boone begins to train Luke and tells him that they are searching for the murderer and that they need Luke’s wyrd to help them. Unbeknownst to Luke, Boone is convinced that Luke might be able to overcome his fate and remain loyal to the other NGs if they believe in him.

  3. Being/Playing a role: Luke pretends to have located his wyrd, while Boone plays dead.

  4. Becoming/Changing one’s nature: Luke finally quickens and becomes an NG just like Boone.

With all that said, it’s time to FINALLY answer your actual question:

MC Throughline: Stuck in a Bad Fate

  1. The Future: Luke is confronted with an unknown future when he hears talk of a coming battle with all the Norse Gods (Ragnarok) and that he has a role to play in that battle!

  2. The Present: Luke finds himself in a camp full of other teenagers who hate him. He’s just trying to get through each day and keep up with all the stuff his new friends are teaching him. This section ends at the midpoint when Luke is confronted with his destiny to become Loki.

  3. The Past: The reveal that Luke is destined to kill Boone sends him into an emotional tailspin because it validates all the worst fears he’s ever had about himself. He finally confronts/reveals why he’s been so hesitant to embrace this new magic stuff-- the last time he let himself be impulsive, he got his baby brother killed! And now this? He only moves on when he hears wind that Boone has already died.

  4. Progress/ How things are Changing: Luke confronts his new reality as an NG. His world has changed forever, and he can never go home again.

Phew!

As a quick bonus round, here’s what I would make of your IC throughline order:

  1. Conscious/ Contemplation: Boone, already aware of Luke’s destiny to become Loki, chooses to befriend him and to convince him to join their fight against TDE.

  2. Memory: (Not much to go on here)

  3. Preconscious/Impulsive Responses: Boone pretends to be dead out of some ill-considered plan to trigger Luke’s quickening.

  4. Subconscious/Innermost Desires: Boone finally gets what he wanted all along: Loki as a committed ally of the good NGs.

Anyway, hope that helps!

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#178

Hi @Audz, are you aware that your signpost selections force the Outcome to be Failure?

I think if you changed the MC order you can have Outcome Success while leaving the OS order as you have it. MC signposts of Past->Progress->Future->Present might make sense (it wasn’t in the summary, but @YellowSuspenders talked earlier about an important MC act 1 moment where a counsellor forces him to discuss his past – the death of his step-brother).

Anyway, I should probably wait to hear what @YellowSuspenders thinks about your ideas, especially the MC in Situation!

#179

Yeah, it would yield a failure/good ending, which seemed to fit well with the notion that TDE was just a sockpuppet, not the real murderer, but that in some ways Luke changed for the better.

But you’re right, from here on out I sit on my hands.

#180

Yeah, I was wrestling with that. But, I see that Audz did a great job in MC Signpost 3.

I’ve always been told that the sincerest form of praise is plagiarism. So, you all should feel yourselves being praised right about now.

[quote=“mlucas, post:176, topic:1487”]
If he’s going from Be-er to Do-er, it might make more sense for him to open the door, tell his dad that he was responsible for his step-brother’s death, and say he’s going to try and make things right by choosing his own destiny, fighting for the future, etc.
[/quote] Okay, you make a good point. But, I’m still unconvinced that he should move back in with his step-dad.
This is the first in a series of either 5 or 7 novels.

I’m sure that wasn’t easy. Thanks for all the hard work. I’ve got two notes. 1.) TDE is the murderer, however he is working for a Bigger, Badder Evil Guy. So, reclaiming the relic and stopping TDE should probably be a successful ending. On the other hand, as Luke quickens by the end of the story, the potential for a greater evil has been born. So, I can understand why the ending might be a failure.

If Boone decides on his own to fake his death, then Luke contributes nothing to the success except by accident. I’m not sure I like that.

Also, I’m really thinking that Luke should have a Holistic Problem-Solving Style.

One last thing, a bit of knowledge to stick under your hat, according to mythology, Ragnarok begins with the death of Baldur/Boone.

#181

Right, sorry, I didn’t mean that he should. I meant that he was explaining to his step-dad why he had to leave now.

I think the Outcome is Success, because it’s pretty clear the Story Goal is to stop TDE and reclaim the relic.

Actually, since Boone is the IC, doing this on his own is a great way for him to influence Luke to see his personal issues in a different light. It forces Luke to come to terms with everything, and is a pretty cool display of his trust in Luke.

After re-reading the summary again, I would guess the MC & OS Problem to be Consider, with the solution being something like reconsidering one’s destiny. There’s a lot of struggle around considering Luke to be a walking time-bomb, considering him to be a great ally, etc., and it causes problems – even for TDE, as considering Luke corrupted sets him up for defeat. Also, I’d say Boone is the Protagonist, not Luke.

A few questions:

  1. Why did the monsters arrive at Luke’s house at the same time (or just before) as Boone & co?
  2. When you say “it is revealed” that Luke played a role in step-bro’s death, do you mean that Luke finds out at this time? Or did he always know and here it’s revealed to other characters, and/or to the reader?
  3. You didn’t mention Boone’s stuff around wanting to avenge his murdered friend or his love interest. I wonder if that would help clarify the MC & IC domains.
  4. Why does Luke steal the car at the beginning?