Antag achieved his goal when outcome is failure?

questions
#1

I have an introvert MC / Protagonist who goes on a camp as he considers to become an extrovert.

The outcome is failure as the story goal (Changing nature) is not achieved and the MC remains steadfast and keeps
his essential nature.

Does this mean the Antagonist has achived his goal (to avoid the goal) not to change the nature of the MC?

Could the antagonist - in Act 2 - RECONSIDER like “Better you think about to leave now before it is too late, an introvert can never be changed into an extrovert” Sounds for me more like a mentor who gives a friendly advice to leave the camp as quick as possible …

a little bit confused …

#2

Just some words of advice, the goal doesn’t seem very logical imho. First of all, I’m not sure it’s something that could be actively pursued; there’s a number of things that go into being an extrovert vs introvert, but perhaps it’s a matter of clarity. Secondly, to that end, are you sure “becoming an extrovert” isn’t perhaps a methodology for achieving something else as a goal? Why does someone wish to be an extrovert? What purpose does it serve? What will they achieve by changing their nature?

The reason I point to this is it feels to “singular” for the lack of a better word, meaning it’s pretty low stakes for an overall story and seems like it would be more of a personal issue that may hold them back from a bigger purpose (a goal of obtaining public office is confounded by a potential candidate’s introverted ways).

An antagonist doesn’t necessarily need to have a goal themselves, but if you pit them head-to-head and it’s clear the outcome is what they were hoping for, I would think it means he achieves his specific goal, but that’s neither here nor there; the outcome is dependent on the Story Goal.

#3

Thanks Jim, makes much more sense.

Below my story points (translated from German to English) as it looks right now …

(Goal Obtaining) An exhausted MC decides to go on a training to make a test in order to become a member of the company’s unofficial inner circle. As a member he hopes to get more influence to change the imperfect world around him.

(Consequences Changing Nature) If he does not succeed, he will be troubled by anger and has eventually to accept the imperfect world.

(Cost Future) As part of the final test he will have to face the wrath of the entire team which will be punished if he is not going to tell his secret.

(Dividend Innermost) Enjoys to stop his anger for a while and telling the group the truth about the imperfect world and how to change it.

(Requirements Understanding) Has to keep posture and be patient while tested, brainwashed and conditioned by an bothersome coach and an egomaniac group.

(Prerequisites Developing) He needs to come up with a plan quick how he can disclose a secret from the past without compromising and jeopardizing his goal

(Precondition Past) MC needs to disclose a secret from the past

(Forewarnings Memories) She, the impact and his coach, willing to help the group to identify the right candidates for the circle, has a gut feeling as the MC obviously tries to hide something

#4

At the end of your story does your Protagonist become a member of the inner circle? Does he change the imperfect world around him?

If Yes, then it is a Success.

If No, then it is a Failure.

Like @JBarker said, the Antagonist does not need to be considered at all for this part.

#5

So, in short, the goal is to ultimately change the world around him which is causing some inequity. I think what you might find most useful, if you haven’t done so already, is nail down your specifics.

The devil is in the details, or so it’s said, but that level of clarity will help a lot when working through this (though I understand you might not want to share specifics in a public forum, too). As is, the goal is still somewhat nebulous/hard to decipher which, in turn, makes the rest of it guesswork. For instance, the consequences aren’t clear because the goal isn’t. That’s the level of clarity your audience is going to demand if you want them following along: if MC doesn’t achieve THIS, then THAT will happen.

So, you want to be specific, but also for clarity’s sake - and this often bogs the writer down, too - you want to cut the extraneous bits that explain. For instance, with Cost, you’re going into story specifics that, from the 30,000 foot level, aren’t relevant. Just keep it simple; what you have written for goal has so much info (exhausted doesn’t matter, what he decides doesn’t matter, testing doesn’t matter, becoming a member doesn’t matter, nor does getting more influence. They’re all simply means to an end of what he really wants, which is the goal).

#6

I’m going to second most of the things @JBarker is saying: you need the specifics. They will force you to understand your story at the level you need to understand it.

However, I disagree that “Cost doesn’t matter.” It might matter a lot to @Gernot; it might be the thing that gets him into the story.

I just listened to a woman talking about her boyfriend/husband and the thread it all hung on was the Cost: her family didn’t like him, and she paid that price to marry him.

@Gernot, that said, you are possibly misunderstanding Cost. He faces the wrath of his team – this has to be true regardless of whether or not he tells his secret. You pay the cost always – it’s not dependent on success/failure, etc. They must be mad that he’s putting them at risk; it’s not relevant if it happens or not.

#7

It’s not that costs don’t matter - not what I said at all - but rather how it’s written is confusing and, as your posts suggests Mike, perhaps confusing for the author’s understanding. The more succinct the answers, the easier to understand for everyone. “Part of the final test” has no real bearing and really draws more questions than answers. This is why I like the “gist” function, it keeps it simple and focused without the justifications, explanations, rationalizations etc., which tend to get in the way.

#8

@Dan310 The MC doesn’t become a member of the circle (failure), won’t change the world around him but changes his essential nature

@JBarker your answer helped a lot, I think my problem is still, that I don’t see the goal myself so clear as I am trying to build the plot and was hoping myself to get a better picture on the way. Do you start with Dramatica and always have a clear goal for your hero in mind? What is the best starting point? I have outlined the last month several plots based on Snyders Beat Sheets and was realizing that the 15 beats fit nicely into Dramatica signposts and journeys. However I am struggling always with my heros goal and purpose and have a hard time to figure how the climax my plot.

They’re all simply means to an end of what he really wants, which is the goal

@MWollaeger

However, I disagree that “Cost doesn’t matter.” It might matter a lot to @Gernot; it might be the thing that gets him into the story.
Thats were I started, a hero who wants to become a member of the inner circle but sees immediately “the wrath of the entire team” … the hero is not exhausted, he is maybe just afraid to take the challenge …

Thanks, hope this helps to clarify from my end …

#9

I think I generally know what a character wants when I start outlining, though I find that I am not always capable of pinpointing it exactly. Usually, I find that the thing I thought was the goal is not the actual OS Goal but is a relevant part of the script.

I also find that Dramatica works best when it is hand-in-hand with a first draft, so it might be best for you to write a draft – even a terrible draft will help clarify things like OS Goal and MC Problem.

Back to the quote of yours that I pulled out – Your MC does not pursue the OS Goal and whenever I see this, I worry that Dramatica is being misunderstood. Do you understand why the MC does not go for the OS Goal?

#10

@Gernot, I personally always start with the ending. It’s like taking a cross-country journey in that it’s always helpful to know what your destination is before you begin, then you know what you’re working toward.

Not everybody does this and doing so may negate opportunities to try other approaches/paths, but I find it helps to know because, typically, theme - theme as in what you’re actually saying with your work, particularly from an argumentative point of view - is determined from your outcome. As such, to the groundwork for the pros and cons (both sides of the argument) have to be exemplified and dramatized throughout the work. That’s what tends to give it a cohesive feeling of unity.

If you’re working on a story with a twist ending, it’s all the more important because the apparent story, what you want your audience to believe, still has to make sense in hindsight when all is revealed - something that’s kind of hard to accomplish if you’re not sure where your ending is when you’re first starting out.

#11

@MWollaeger

Do you understand why the MC does not go for the OS Goal?

Thats what I am trying to figure out. At the moment I guess the MC learns to understand that becoming a member of the inner circle is not what makes him happy at the end. It was wishful thinking … power, status, money … happiness is something else, and thats why he changes.

#12

Sorry, not worded well.

Do you know the difference between the mc and the protagonist?

#13

For me…

  • MC, Main Character, the perspective from which the story is told.
  • Protagonist in charge for the goal.

Now your comment makes more sense… I maybe found a MC but not yet a real protagonist who considers to pursuit the goal?

#14

I think yes, and this is what @JBarker was getting at too.

#15

Yes, but more importantly getting the goal down correctly.

Just a few examples off the top of my head where people confuse the goal with the solution in mainstream movies: in the Exorcist, the goal isn’t to perform an exorcism - yet a lot of people think it is which negates understanding what the true problem and the build up to it is. The goal in A Beautiful Mind isn’t to create some theorem; it’s to matter in the eyes of others. The goal in Star Wars isn’t to blow up the Death Star (Luke and Ben aren’t even privy to this for the majority of the film). Rather, blowing up the Death Star is a solution toward fulfilling the goal.

Once that goal is known, everything else more or less tends to fall into place because its an endpoint of the spine it all hangs on.

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#16

Hey JBarker, I think you may be mixing up the OS Story Goal with MC throughline. The goal of Star Wars is to defeat the Empire’s efforts to control everything (i.e. Fighting the Empire). Blowing up the Death Star is an expression of that goal, which is established in the opening crawl. The audience follows the path of the plans (stored in R2D2) all through the story and the last act is the effort to exploit its weakness by attacking (and destroying) the Empire’s greatest weapon.

So technically you are right that blowing up the Death Star is not the goal – since the goal is a process (Doing), not a specific event (e.g. Obtaining) – but it is an expression of the efforts to achieve the goal.

Of course, it is tied to the OS Issue (Skill) and OS Solution (Trust) in that the Rebels must trust in Luke’s skill at the very last to blow up the Death Star using the Force instead of the targeting computer.

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#17

@chuntley, right, in either case blowing up the Death Star’s merely a step to achieve something else (the goal). My point to include Luke, as protagonist, was to illustrate the importance of connecting/identifying the appropriate goal and how sometimes people mistake the goal itself for the means to achieve it which, going back to the OP, is what I had an inkling was happening with Gernot. Could be wrong, though!

#18

This thread has me thinking – Is the Story Goal the only thing in consideration when talking about Success or Failure or is the Overall Story Problem and Solution considered as well? Such as, is it still considered a Success story if the Overall Solution is not put into effect?

#19

I believe that the OS Solution is the necessary step to achieving the Story Goal. So if the Solution is not put into effect, the Goal is not achieved and the Outcome is Failure.

EDIT: Have since learned that whether the OS Solution comes into play or not, it is independent of the Story Outcome.

#20

How would that happen?