Beauty and the Beast

analysis
#82

Those are really great illustrations.

Okay, assuming we accept what we have so far, that leaves Belle with a Problem/Solution of Control/Uncontrolled (one or the other) and Feeling/Logic as the dynamic pair for the OS and the Beast.

I was going to say Uncontrolled (Freedom) for Belle – she’s Steadfast, so her having a drive to be free (from the town, from the castle) makes sense to me. But that makes Beast’s Problem Feeling and his solution Logic, which doesn’t quite make sense to me. So maybe it’s reversed?

The Problem/Solution Focus/Direction quad (what goes where) is the hardest for me to understand (other than the driver).

#83

I liked Uncontrolled for Belle too – and when her father’s in trouble and needs help, she takes the burden of imprisonment onto herself (Focus of Help, Direction of Hinder).

Feeling actually works well for the Beast’s Problem, since he’s so caught up in his own self-loathing and always acting based on rage and emotion, even sometimes when he doesn’t mean to… This works pretty well with his own IC Response of Uncontrolled (wild temper) too.

I think Logic as the Beast’s Solution is simple. He’s gone for so long believing that he’s unlovable, and when the castle is under attack he’s basically ready to die, to let Gaston kill him. But when he sees that Belle has come back for him, something clicks into place. Suddenly he’s ready to defend himself, defend Belle.

BEAST: “Belle! You came back!”

then (to Gaston): “I AM NOT A BEAST!”

So I think his Logic Solution is simply connecting the dots – if Belle came back for him, she must care for him, must love him … therefore he’s not unlovable. He’s not a beast after all.

We should take some time to look for OS Illustrations too though… The elements look right but need to “connect the dots” lol. For now I can think of Gaston riling everyone up against the beast as a good example of Feeling causing problems…

#84

Pulling some gists for Feeling:

Lacking Feelings for Someone: Belle doesn’t have feelings for Gaston. (She also doesn’t have feelings for the Beast initially – and without that, no resolution (?))

getting an impression about someone: Belle’s initial impressions of the Beast are not good.

Being Frustrated with Someone | being angry | being overly emotional | being unable to express one’s feelings | feeling all is lost: These could all describe problematic attitudes of the Beast

Randomly from the script Jim linked to:

LUMIÈRE: The rose has only four petals left. Which means tonight … you must tell her how you feel.

THE BEAST: I feel like a fool. She will never love me.

Later Mrs. Potts says: “Just stop being a coward and tell Belle how you feel. And if you don’t, I promise you’ll be drinking cold tea for the rest of your life.”

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#85

it kind of seems like the live-action version is less subtle in almost every aspect than the animated one.

#86

I don’t want to interrupt the flow of conversation, so I’m not going to go into depth with this until the rest of the conversation is over. But I think I see at least part of what I’m not liking at the Concern level (MC Future). I’m probably not going to be ‘right’ in my objection, but hopefully it’ll still be a learning opportunity.

#87

I really loved the live-action version though – was blown away by it, in fact. Whereas I never personally appreciated the cartoon version that much.

I don’t know, I still wonder if there is a substory because something about the live-action version felt different. Especially the stuff about Belle’s mom and everything, it felt like a separate personal issue from the “Belle is odd / there must be something more than this provincial town” stuff she was dealing with. All of that seemed to give a richer feeling to the story, kind of like Sound of Music has with its two stories.

I wonder if this is what you’re feeling too @Gregolas with your hesitation about MC Concern of The Future.

Or I might just be crazy. Or have a secret crush on Emma Watson.

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#88

Yeah, I liked the live action better than the cartoon (from what I remember). Honestly it was never one my huge favorites but the live performance I saw last weekend just blew me away (and that didn’t have the backstory about the death of her mother now that I think about it).

@Gregolas is that what’s bothering you (her Past?) Or is it something else? I think they added that stuff about the past because it seems like a unanswered question (what happened to Belle’s mother?) and gives the impression of adding depth. But I actually feel like it’s a bit of a distracting backstory – it doesn’t quite feel relevant. Maybe I should watch that version again though.

#89

No. I remember wondering about that last year, but haven’t given it a second thought this go round. My objection is strictly about the area of the Future. I do have a response to my objection that would allow everything to stay in this area of the table, though. So whether I’m wrong or not, I think everything is still roughly the same which is why I think it’s better to wait until everything else is settled.

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#90

Okay, well I think we’re getting pretty close. @Lakis, great illustrations for OS Problem Feeling.

Here’s a nice illustration for OS Focus/Direction of Help/Hinder:

BELLE: I want to help you. There must be some way to lift the curse.

The staff exchange looks.

COGSWORTH: Well, there is one–

Lumière candle-smacks him, leaving a waxy smear on his face.

MRS. POTTS: It’s not for you to worry about, lamb. We’ve made our bed and we must lie in it.

Notice how Belle focuses on helping them, and Cogsworth starts to reach for that help. But Lumiere smacks him (hindering) and then Mrs. Potts basically says “no this is our burden to bear” (burden = hinder).

Switching to the RS for a minute, Attitude is a perfect issue. Seems like everyone is biased against the idea that a beauty and a beast could fall in love (even the audience brings such an Attitude about the relationship into the story, so it’s captured in the title). Their attitudes about the relationship cause a lot of conflict, especially at the beginning. Meanwhile, some of the castle staff have a different attitude – a positive outlook or at least concern about the relationship – which is constantly causing conflict for the relationship as the staff try to force them together.

And I think Oppose works pretty well as a Problem, for basically the same reasons (disagreeing with the idea that they could love each other, opposing the relationship because they’re not suited).

What’s really neat is how this relationship starts to adopt its solution pretty early in the story. Starting around page 60/101 in the script they talk about books and he gives her the library, and there’s so much obvious Support that springs up between them – apologizing for past wrongs, paying attention to what each other like, etc. Even “there’s something there that wasn’t there before” sounds like suddenly the relationship has something to stand on, something lifting it up and supporting it.

#91

This is great @mlucas

This is really interesting. There’s this subtext there – they can’t just ask her for help, because you can’t force love, so they hinder each other (or accept being hindered…)

Could this also apply to the Beast imprisoning her? She’s there to help her father; in response to that help, she is imprisoned herself (hindered from escaping).

And this seems like a great example of how RS story points can be expressed through the views of outsiders.

I confess this is where I start to not know where one throughline stops and another starts. I am thinking of the scene where Belle runs away, and the Beast rescues her from the wolves, and she in turn helps him – this seems a lot like Help – which is the Focus of 3/4 throughlines (?) Thematically this quad seems to be all there, but I have trouble separating it all out.

BTW Dramatica tells me that the MC Crucial element is Hinder, and the IC Crucial element is Help. What to make of that?

Also I’m trying to figure out how to encode the OS solution of Logic.

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#92

That seems really wacky.

#93

Crucial element is another thing I really have trouble with, especially for steadfast characters. It quite often seems reversed to me.

Or do you think we’re off somewhere else – like we’ve picked the wrong problem/solution?

#94

When it’s that far off, it usually means you have the wrong elements.

You should hit the Crucial Elements and feel like, Woah, how was Dramatica able to predict that? That’s when you know you’ve got the right storyform.

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#95

If we flip her Problem from Uncontrolled to Control then we have her Crucial Element as Help, which seems better (?)

If that’s wrong, then we have to revisit the Issues …

#96

I don’t know, to me it seemed wacky in the same way that Moana’s Crucial Element of Avoidance seemed wacky (or the MC’s from Hacksaw Ridge, Control, which you described really well in your podcast, though I never saw the film).

I haven’t had too much time to think about it yet but I could see that Belle is pointing out the problems with Hinder through both her personal throughline and her role in the overall story. She’s held back in her personal life by the opinions of everyone in the town, and by the burden of taking care of her father. Yet in the OS she goes ahead and takes on the burden of being the Beast’s prisoner, initially in order to help her father, but as time goes on it’s also to help the beast and the cursed castle inhabitants too.

This actually seems to fit the Steadfast-Start Crucial Element Definition really well:

In a Steadfast-Start story (a hole to be filled) the OS Direction element is used by the main Character to fill that hole (the OS Focus) and thus allow the Solution to take effect and clear the problem.

In order to fill the hole of Help (OS Focus, beast & others needing help to lift curse), Belle hinders her own future by becoming the beast’s prisoner.

#97

I had considered this, but it gives the Beast a Problem of Logic. Feeling seemed WAY better.

There’s also the option of Control & Uncontrolled as Focus & Direction, but then we’d have to bring Temptation & Conscience in as the OS & IC Problem/Solution, and that didn’t seem right. Unless you have an argument for that?

#98

Control and Uncontrolled makes waaaaay more sense.

#99

This is where I get confused.

On the one hand, she’s a Universe character who wants to get out of the situation of being controlled (by her life in the town, by the Beast, etc.) So Control makes sense.

On the other hand, she’s a Steadfast character which means Problem = Drive … her drive is Freedom (Uncontrolled).

Regarding the Crucial Element, there is also a scene at the end where she does Hinder the villagers from killing the Beast:

THE BEAST: (roars) BELLE! You came back!

BELLE: I tried to stop them!

On the other hand @mlucas I could see the Beast’s Problem being Logic e.g. logically, who could love a Beast? And his Solution being finally expressing his feelings for Belle.

So count me confused…

#100

But that requires Conscience and Temptation as Overall Problem/Solution, along with IC Problem/Solution, and that doesn’t seem right to me. (either that or we would need to change some Domains) Am I missing something, is there Conscience/Temptation that I don’t see?

I haven’t seen analysis done based on Crucial Elements before. I agree they can be a good check at the end, but if all the other Elements seem right and fit their purpose (Problem, Solution, Focus, Direction), I think we should at least take our time to give the implied Crucial Elements a chance…

#101

Was Jim arguing for Control/Uncontrolled for Belle’s Problem/Solution or Symptom/Response? If it’s for Problem/Solution, that gives Belle a Crucial Element of Help (and I think just flips everything else).