Characters and Characteristics

questions
#1

I am at the stage of Illustrating and Weaving my story, but I am not sure how to work in characters in accord with the theory.

I understand that there are 64 character elements that need to be used in the course of telling the story for it to be complete. I also understand that characters are seen as functional, and the elements should be assigned to characters.

Is the assignment of an element to a character durable? For instance, if the character whose name is John is given the element of Pursuit, must he express that element for the entire story? Or just for a given signpost or journey? Can a different character be given that element for a different scene/chapter/act/signpost/journey??

#2

Usually, users of Dramatica, from what I gather from this forum, allow the character function assignment to occur by subconscious happenstance. It can be difficult to assign these functions deliberately.

Now, to answer your theoretic question: Technically, the functions need not reside in the same player through the story, so long as the same player does not represent functions in the same quad during the same scene.

In other words, you’re free to mix and match in different scenes. Only be sure you keep the same functions with the same players in a single scene.

One note: To do what you suggest, I suspect, is relatively rare and might lead to an unusual or confusing feel for the audience. Perhaps even jarring, if not handled delicately.

All that said, this part can be done consciously, but usually is not due to the difficulty of consistency. It’s generally used to figure out a false character moment or a scene that isn’t quite working right, after writing a draft. Keep this in mind as you continue.

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#3

I second everything @Hunter said.

This concept is known as a “character handoff.” A great example of this is in “Spiderman: Into the Spiderverse.” During the first half of the movie, Doc Oc illustrates the elements of Logic and Uncontrolled for the first half of the movie, then Spider-Ham takes over those elements for the rest of the film.

Sources:


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#4

In Pinocchio, the archetypal antagonist role is filled first by Stromboli, then by the Coachman, and finally (perhaps) by Monstro the whale.

So I can just print up the table and look at it as I write, assigning the elements as needed?

Is the minimal requirement that I use all 64 elements in each signpost? Or journey? Do they all have to appear separately in each throughline?

#5

In the past I tried “assigning” character elements, but my assignments almost always turned out wrong (the muse does as it will with characters!).

So now I just write the story without worrying about character elements. But I pay attention when someone seems to fit a particular element or archetype. If it feels right to have them continue to fulfil those elements, then I allow that to further my conscious understanding of the character (which is only like 10% of the subconscious understanding anyway).

The exception is the Protagonist (esp. Pursue the Goal) and Antagonist (esp. Avoid aka Prevent the Goal). I find it’s good to figure those out early because knowing the Story Goal and everyone’s relation to it can really help your own understanding of the story and how to plan it (even if you barely plan). And yes, these roles can be handed off, but I wouldn’t do so wily-nily, only when if it feels right for the story as a whole.

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#6

A couple other things to note:

  • The OS character elements are in relation to the Story Goal. So just being skeptical (disbelieving/opposing) does not make someone the Skeptic, but being skeptical of the Goal does. HOWEVER, it can be good to show consistency by having that character be skeptical toward everything. (another thing I would do by feel though)
  • Related to the above, character elements do not have to cross throughlines. So the same character who demonstrates Oppose and Disbelief in the OS, might be super faithful and supportive of the MC re: his personal issues.
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#7

All the elements? Is this true?

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#8

I mean the 64 OS character elements, which is what the original post was talking about (I edited the above to add “OS” to make it more clear).

Obviously, when used in other throughlines (like say MC Problem or RS Symptom or something), or just the 64 elements as they might play out in those throughlines, they’re in relation to that throughline perspective, not the Story Goal.

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#9

cool, thanks for that clarification. That’s very useful, actually.

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#10

I’ve tried to assign elements using Armando’s approach to creating character interactions in Dramatica for Screenwriters. I still love this idea in theory and think it could be extremely useful if done the right way. In practice though, the sheer complexity of trying to assign the different elements and create character interactions was way too time consuming, putting it firmly in the camp of “Dramatica as procrastination”.

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#11

I didn’t find his way helpful. I wish I had. Lord knows I tried.

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#12

So, given 64 elements which need to appear through characters addressing the relevant problem in each throughline for a complete story, is the timing of the appearance of the elements structural? For instance, can you just have them appear wherever you want, or does the structure have anything to say about when they can/should appear in each throughline?

#13

For clarity:

The OS has 64 Elements spread throughout the players in a story.
The MC has 64 Elements used by the Main Character perspective only.
The IC has 64 Elements used by the Influence Character perspective only.
The RS has 64 Elements affecting the Relationship perspective only.

Each of the 64 Elements in any of these groups carries the same name as one in another group, but they are 256 different Elements. This is most visible when each Element is seen as an item within the context of the Variation under which it sits.

Whether there is a structure, order, or timing to the appearance of these Elements in a story is unknown to us. There very likely is, and there may be a proprietary algorithm to determine it. However, if there is such an algorithm, it has not been released to us and likely won’t be. Thus, I can only answer from a general feel of stories. The OS characteristics seem to show up at least once per Signpost, while the other elements feel as though they weave throughout the story.

At the element level, though, the context becomes so blurred, buried, and creative that order virtually doesn’t matter, even if there is a theoretic structure to it. Due to this minutia, trying to force a design generally produces a stilted story. Thus, considering I don’t know your actual purpose in asking this question, I present these options.

  • If you’re asking because you want to ensure that you create Complex Characters, then work with your muse to create characters that have unusual drives and purposes, and react in unexpected or strange ways.

  • If you are asking because you want to outline a story at this level, then check if you have outlined with these first: The Signposts, the Static Story Points, and the Plot Sequence Report. If so, then I would venture to guess that you have enough to start the actual writing at this point.

  • If you are asking in order to use the functions as Storytelling, then you’ve reached the limits of Dramatica. The theory covers structure, but gives very little for Storytelling. However, Storytelling is covered by virtually everyone else.

The truth is, the only decent amount of information we have is on the OS character functions. Any deeper dive into this portion of the theory is going to lead to a lot of guesswork. The information just isn’t there.

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#14

I would just focus on the problem/solution/focus/direction of the throughline. The theory has the ability to predict and give the order of all 64 elements, but the software doesn’t provide it because it’s too constrictive. Also, if you just focus on the problem quad, that’s enough for the audience to get it.

Besides, everything you do, everything you write, is.a process, so you end up accidentally-or if you prefer Mike’s description you end up using your subconscious-to fill in all the other elements. If you have a character say ‘I’m not sure about this’ and another says ‘What?! why didn’t you say that before?’, there’s your Skeptic dealing with problems of skepticism. If you show one kid pass an answer on a test to another kid and get caught, you just dealt with problems of Help. So you end up exploring a bunch without actually having to plan them all out.

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#15

Theoretically, the 64 elements under the Objective Story Throughline show up once per Act. The idea is that you’re looking at those Elements in context of the Type in an attempt to better understand what is the most appropriate Element to resolve the inequity at hand.

As mentioned, these Elements are always in reference to the Story Goal - who is Pursuing the Goal, who Hinders the Goal, who Accepts along the way to the Story Goal, etc.

The order of Elements within the narrative are an entirely separate matter – in much the same way that Variations in one Throughline take on an entirely different meaning once the model is spun up and twisted.

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#16

I am less concerned with creating complex or archetypal characters and more concerned with completeness and avoiding meandering too much.

If I sit down and begin writing I can produce page after page of happenings, characters, important objects, etc. But it is all rather aimless.

If I examine what I have written there is very little, if any, structure.

On the other hand, I don’t want to get overly detailed in outlining. But I sense that I need some structure to guide my writing, hence I am trying to use Dramatica to that end.

I suppose all writing (of this sort) goes back and forth between structuring/outlining and composition/writing. Something along the lines of:

structure->compose->restructure->recompose->…->recompose final draft

or

compose->structure->recompose->…->recompose final draft

I came to the forums because I am trying to get a handle on outlining with the aforementioned tools: Signposts/Journeys, Static Story Points and the PSR.

When I choose “Story Points” in Dramatica, I get a long list, beginning with Genre Points>>Dynamics. Are the Static Story Points listed here? What are they called? Plot Points?

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#17

So in Act 1, for instance, attempts are made to solve the inequity in each throughline, as expressed though characters which represent different elements. But the solution to the problem always occurs in the 4th signpost/act, so our argument is made by showing that the attempts to solve the problem in the first three acts/signposts fails, correct?

#18

Not exactly. All four sign posts act as an exploration of a single problem, but all four are needed to fully explore the problem because each only gives a view of one fourth of the problem. So the characters might ‘solve’ or ‘fail’ any sign post, but all four together as a single unit will either solve or fail the problem as a whole.

I’m not sure if that makes sense reading it, but for an example, watch the first 1/4 of A Beautiful Mind. John Nash doesn’t solve the larger story problem of dealing with John Nash, but he does solve the Conceiving Sign Post problem of coming up with an original idea.

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#19

I think anything that’s not a Sigpost or part of the PSR is Static Story Point.

One of the pros and cons of the Dramatica software is that there are many paths to do things but it can be overwhelming (aside from the theory).

Personally, I think that if you’re going to add illustrations into the software (rather than copy the storyform and PSR from the reports and do it in another program), the easiest way is to use the Dramatica for Screenwriters option under the Story Guide button. This will be easier to understand if you’ve read those chapters from the book, but it’s not required.

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#20

This only exists in the Mac version. So, if that’s unavailable the best tools are to pull things out from Dramatica and use whatever writing tool one finds easiest and/or export things into Subtext.

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