Confused by too many versions of my own story

writing
#6

I don’t know if you’re having trouble with having too many story forms, but have you separated out your throughlines? I’ve got a big mess as well and trying to learn stuff like that. It seems like it’d be especially hard if you have an OS and MC in the internal domains. If, by chance, you find yourself looking for answers, then ending up with a bunch of new questions about story forms due to clicking down a rabbit hole of articles out of fear that if you don’t, you may miss out on a vital piece of information that could make or break your work, then questioning where to draw the line between “bad” perfectionism and healthy analysis because you want certainty, you’re not alone. I wish I had an answer to solve that.

Mike’s advice sounds good. I like to hang on to my outdated notes and scenes, but stick them in a separate section (I’m using yWriter, so I’ll have scenes organized under a chapter, and I add a scene called “scrap” and dump the stuff I cut there) so they’re out of the way, but I won’t have to worry about the off chance of needing something that’s been lost forever!1!

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#7

I would recommend to use Dramatica just for storyforming, and maybe the Build Characters window. Then you can export the reports (like Story Engine Settings, Plot Sequence Report if you happen to use that, Build Characters if you use that), and do your work in Scrivener or word processing software.

If you can get the Outline solid where you can see a lot of your storyform working in it (like most of the main story points come into it somewhere), and you can see the 4 Acts broken up by Story Drivers, then you will be in an awesome place. At that point the Signposts will tell you what fits well in each Act. But, it can take some work to get there.

Let us know if you have any questions at all that we can help with! Good luck!

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#8

Thank you, Mike. I think it’s a good idea. I am still learning about Dramatica, and not sure in my understanding of concepts & terminology. What is the best way to approach it? Theory book?

#9

Thank you, @SharkCat. I did not separate my throughlines, I should do it, thank you. What was your best way of getting to understand Dramatica?

#10

I’m still having trouble so I’ve started a bunch of threads. I’ve read the book, I look at examples in the program. The Narrative First blog can be helpful. I’m not sure my trouble is with Dramatica itself but my own story (the thread on RS confusion has turned into talking about trying to figure out my throughlines). I don’t know about your story issues, but since some aspects are negotiable in mine, I find it hard to settle on one story form since I’m not sure what to cut out or not to better serve the story.

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#11

The best way to approach it is to focus on the “big picture items” – look at breaking stories into the four domains, understanding the Drivers, understanding Outcome and Judgment.

Come here and ask lots of questions. That’s a requirement, basically.

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#12

Don’t forget the Limit! :wink: It doesn’t affect much of the other variables in the program, true, but I wouldn’t underestimate its effect on the audience. I’ve watched too many shows and read too many books that feel utterly lifeless because, without a Limit, they have no heartbeat.

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#13

Thank you, @MWollaeger, @actingpower , and @SharkCat !

I will follow you advice. I am doing the free course with NarrativeFirst, and it seems to help. Should I create new topic for every question? I am not sure about time & options limit at this point. It seems that my characters have different limits. Can it be? Should I create limits for every throughline?

#14

Yes. That way they stay focused.

I would work on these after the other ones I suggested. There will always be something you don’t understand, and you can get lost trying to figure it out. Understand the other things 100% and then ask this question. (In my opinion.)

If you really want an answer now, I will answer it for you.

#15

Thank you, @MWollaeger , I think I am okay for now :slight_smile:

#16

…Oops. :sweat: Sorry, both of you. I guess for me, knowing the Limit helps me center my understanding of where the story is going and when the deadline will hit. I’m sure for other writers, it’s other things that help them pin down the direction of their story. Drivers are important, obviously–separating the Four Throughlines, also. If I’m starting at square one, I usually just go through the 12 Questions, but another option might be to try pegging down the Overall Characters. I dunno. Ultimately, what matters is identifying what is important to the story and what doesn’t advance the intended argument.

#17

Just to be clear, what I’m really recommending here is: pick just a few things and learn them cold. I think understanding the four domains is the most important and that Outcome is the easiest, so you will be able to move past that one the fastest. That is why I chose those two.

I think Drivers are straightforward too, but others do not. Still, I think this will be fast.

I’m picking things I think will be fast, not things that will be the moat valuable. Ultimately they are all important and everyone finds the things that help them the most.

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#18

Thank you, @MWollaeger!

I am reading Dramatica book, but how do I know to focus on these categories that you mention? Should I just skip the rest? Confused :confused:

#19

I was going to make a whole list of what I think are the most important things to learn about Dramatica in order, but then I realized… the Dramatica comic book does just that! Have you read that yet? If not, I highly recommend it. The art’s a little dated, and there are typos here and there, but it’s a great informal walkthrough of the key concepts of Dramatica.

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#20

I wouldn’t think of it as ignoring anything, but I would spend a bit of extra time focusing on the things I mentioned until you understand them.

• Judgement
Rewatch a favorite movie or reread a favorite book. What is the mood at the end of the movie? What is the mood of the Main Character? and, importantly, how do you know?
Example: At the end of Star Wars, Luke, Hans and the Wookie all get medals in a ceremony filled with pomp and circumstance. They all seem happy and they are smiling with each other.

You don’t need to know much about the rest of the movie to know that this is a Judgment: Good.

There are rare stories where it is not this obvious, and if you read or watch something where you don’t know, just skip it, or ask here for guidance. Find ones you recognize, and build up from there.

This moment is usually not subtle. So once you begin to recognize it, it is pretty easy to incorporate into your own work.

• Outcome
A bit trickier, but usually by feel you know if a movie is a Success or a Failure. Again, you must be able to point to why this is true. The feeling will guide you, but then you have to back it up with facts. This means you have to find the OS Goal, define it, and see if it’s been achieved.
Example: In Lord of the Flies, the boys want to attract the attention of the British Navy. Specifically, Ralph wants to do this and he is the Protagonist. Last Chapter: The British Navy comes to the island. Success.
I like this example because, even though Ralph is the Protagonist, he is not the one that brings about the Success ending. It does not matter who makes it happen.

• Drivers
Ask yourself “What happens at the beginning of the story that forces the story to happen?”
Ask yourself, “What happens at the end of the story that lets me know it’s over?”
See if you can start to recognize Actions and Decisions at these two moments. (There are more, but focus on these two.)
The forces is important. I can decide to become a lawyer in the first scene of a movie, but if an flood hits my city and the movie is about saving people, then you know that my decision to go to law school isn’t relevant to the OS. Maybe it’s relevant to my MC thread. Maybe it’s filler.

• Domains
Okay, this is the hardest one on the list, but it’s the beginning of deep knowledge.

  1. Listen to the podcasts. Watch the movies, and then listen to the first 30 minutes. You will hear how we sort these out. We ask questions, basically: “What is the overall story?” “What is the the MC’s personal problem?” Then we put them into the four domains. Learning to see these, like all things, just takes practice. Rest assured, this is easier in a group, so if it’s hard doing it alone… well, yes, it’s hard doing it on your own. That’s just the way it is.
  2. Make up stories you never plan to write. Do this on your own or with the Brainstorming button. Come up with an OS, MC, IC, and RS. Make sure you are making them discrete. (Non-overlapping.) Practice, practice!

When you have questions, start threads, and ask away.

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#21

There are also some group analyses on these forums – e.g. the one we did for A Man For All Seasons, or the one for Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan. If you prefer reading to podcasts / videos then those can be useful – but definitely watch the movies first if you haven’t seen them in a long time.

The Narrative First podcast (availabe on iTunes etc.) is also very useful – it covers lots of material but often offers tidbits towards the stuff Mike is talking about (Judgment, Outcome, Drivers, Domains).

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#22

Thank you, @actingpower! I love it.

#23

Thank you, @mlucas. I am actually doing some basic lessons with Narrative First. Everything I am doing so far brings me back to my initial problem with MC & IC. Who is who? I have four major players, and I am having troubles assigning roles. How common is this? I will go back to one of my first posts and maybe post anew with a short synopsis. Thanks to All of You! And Happy Holidays!

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#24

How to identify the MC: This is kind of a quick-and-dirty way to do it, but after the prologue, who is the first character you see? That’s probably the Main Character. In most movies and stories, the writer wants to get you settled into the MC’s point-of-view, so they start by establishing the Main Character and getting you accustomed to their way of life. (You know, like the hometown of Campbell’s hero.) Theoretically, you could introduce the Main Character at the very end of Act 1 and have the Influence Character first, but that’s less likely, I think.

Basically, if you have four different characters with leading roles, which one do you feel the readers empathize with the most closely? Which one is our emotional “in” for the story? Which one do you feel is “you?” Let me see if The Amulet of Samarkand makes sense as an example. (It’s been a while since I’ve read it, so I could be way off.) The story jumps back and forth between the perspectives of the djinni Bartimaeus and the wizard John Mandrake. In fact, I even think the first perspective shown is Bartimaeus’. But Bartimaeus is, well, a djinni, while John Mandrake is a normal human with normal ambitions and desires. Mandrake is almost certainly the MC, while Bartimaeus is the IC.

Speaking of which, the IC. In contrast to the MC, the IC should be a sort of “alien” perspective. When you’re a little garbage-packing robot on the dessicated remains of Earth, a beautiful, svelte robot on an away mission from a distant space colony will challenge your entire perspective. EVE has a very different background than WALL-E, and their relationship teaches them about the struggle between doing what’s right and following orders, all to the tune of “It Only Takes a Moment.” Disney-Pixar loves this method: a character is going about their daily life when suddenly an intruder with an entirely new way of thinking throws everything out of whack.

Another possibility is that the IC is sort of a dark reflection of the MC. In a TV show I’m really fond of, there was this one episode about one of the main characters trying to join a flight team, and her IC was a daring flier with very similar ambitions, only without a drop of loyalty or worry about the safety of others. The disturbing part of this other character’s actions was not that they were so unusual, but that the MC was almost the IC, just with one key aspect changed.

Lastly, of course, you might be able to figure out the IC because they have a close relationship with the MC–you know, the backbone of the Relationship Throughline. :stuck_out_tongue: So if you’ve got four characters running around, but two of them seem to have the most insightful conversations together, that might be your clue that they’re your Subjective Characters.

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#25

Hi @actingpower,

This is really great. Really. It made me rethink the whole thing. Wow. Thank you!!!