Difference between Conscious and Consider

[glennbecker]

I’m loving this discussion and these are really good points.

@mlucas

There’s no doubt Psychology is internal. 100%.

But when you go down to the next level, is Becoming always 100% internal?

So, to my mind, there’s four things to consider (a quad, who would have guessed?)

• The item itself. What is it’s definition and what is it’s purpose?
• The item’s parent. What other element gives rise to this one?
• The item’s children. What elements does this item give rise to?
• The item’s position within it’s quad. Is it K T A D?

Because the entire model is K T A D repeated over an over, all the differences we see are based on the flavoring or color supplied by the levels above, right? So, Approach / Self-Interest / Morality / Attitude are the same as Rationalization / Commitment / Responsibility / Obligation save for the fact that one is flavored by the Desire of Ability and the other is flavored by the Desire of Desire.

@mlucas

But when you go down to the next level, is Becoming always 100% internal?

Maybe, maybe not. I’m probably not the best person to answer that.

But … Psychology is internal because it’s in the Desire position, right? Becoming is the Desire of Desire.

You could say Becoming batteries is the consequence of the Matrix, but could it not also be that if they don’t find the Chosen One then they’ll become well and truly defeated? Their entire way of thinking and all of their desires are wrapped up in Neo being the Chosen One, if he’s not, or if he is and is killed, where does that leave them? What part of themselves would they lose or have to give up if that happened?

I know people are being transformed into batteries as part of the storytelling and backstory, but when things get bad and the story hits emotional low points, batteries don’t seem to play much of a part. Where as I can remember the complete devastation they feel when they think Neo is gone / not the one.

[Lakis]

@mlucas

This may seem heretical, but I feel like we have to be careful not to assume that every element in the model must “be” what its parent or parents are.

I don’t much to add to this other than hoping that @jhull and others can weigh in because this has been a source of confusion for me for a while. And I think for others as well – for example the Home Alone analysis in which it seems like some of the lower level “Mind-like” Evaluation Problem stuff was misinterpreted for the higher-level genre. But Evaluation is still under Universe, right?

I think the “in the context of” point is probably crucial. “Understanding” certainly seems like it could be internal – unless we think of it in the context of Physics.

[glennbecker]

Looking at the chart, Evaluation is always the Ability of the Thought of Thought of X. X being the domain it’s seen in. So that “Mind” feel makes sense when you think about how it always has at least two levels of Thought flavoring it.

I know Jim has been pushing “thinking genre-ally”. The genre sets the context / tone / flavor of everything below it, but it’s also the broadest appreciation.

@Lakis

I think the “in the context of” point is probably crucial.

I’ve heard Chris Huntley say context is everything in Dramatica. This discussion has really opened me up to just how true that actually is!

@Lakis

“Understanding” certainly seems like it could be internal – unless we think of it in the context of Physics.

I think there’s a lot of mind-blowing intuition building that could come from comparing items in the same chart positions to each other.

Really musing on how are Understanding / Past / Memory / Conceptualizing the same and how are they different?

Insert mind blown gif here.

[mlucas]

Yes, great discussion! I should point out that I was not 100% sure of everything I wrote in my last post, but decided to take a stand in order to learn.

@glennbecker

Insert mind blown gif here.

Here’s one image you can use Glenn, built into Discus: (it’s called “boom”; the list comes automatically if you type a colon.)

[JohnDusenberry]

@jhull

The more I think about it (Conscious), the more apt I am to Consider “being inconsiderate” only an illustration of Conscious.

Not that Dictionary.com knows all, but I wanted to share the standard definition to further back up your point:

Inconsiderate = thoughtlessly causing hurt or inconvenience to others.

Seems that thoughtless, thinking, or “lack of thinking” is the operative word there.

[Greg]

@mlucas

But when you go down to the next level, is Becoming always 100% internal?

I’ve wondered similar. For instance, if every quad has a KTAD, and a state and a process, does it also have an internal and external?
I don’t know, but I do tend to treat everything under Psych and Mind as internal. For instance

@mlucas

humanity becoming batteries in The Matrix

I haven’t seen the movie in a really long time and ‘Becoming batteries’ may be the unarguable consequence of that film, but I’d really want to tie it to something like humanity’s nature of accepting the matrix as reality, or something along those lines. Like, if they fail to Obtain, the consequence is a continued lack of Becoming free from the Matrix or whatever. Much harder to word, but expresses the more internal aspect.

[jhull]

I agree. I always saw “becoming batteries” as more existential then physical. As a power source, you’ll have new responsibilities and obligations. Your level of commitment to your new life and your ability to rationalize it all away will determine if you get flushed of or not.