If you know what your narrative’s argument is, how do you turn that into the right story form? I’ve read that it’s got to do with Crucial Element, Story Outcome, etc, but how do all those things fit together to say, “this is what the outcome of my story means”?
Is it basically:
“If you (Start/Stop) (Crucial Element-ing), you can (Succeed/Fail) to (Story Goal) and feel (Good/Bad) about it.”?
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Jim, although I love that article and agree 100%, I believe something amazing can happen the other way around too.
I think some authors (I’m one) approach their writing without consciously thinking much about what their argument or “theme” is. We initially discover our stories by thinking about who the characters are and what’s driving them, what major plot events we see, how it’s going to end. For me that’s enough to start writing – I can see hints of theme but I either don’t really care or don’t want to look at it too closely.
Eventually I figure out the storyform, and work with it enough to really understand how all the elements are working. Finally at some point in that process the storyform (esp. Crucial Element) teaches me what I’ve been trying to say all along!
(hopefully I’ll get the chance to post some examples of this…)
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@SharkCat is it possible that you’re struggling because you are trying to approach it BOTH ways? You have all these ideas about the story, the MC & IC, the plot, and then you also want the story to have a particular message. I think you may either have to:
- let go of the message you want your story to have, and let your story tell you what it’s actually trying to say
OR - create your storyform based on the message you want, and let that dictate what’s motivating your characters, what the sources of conflict are in each throughline, etc. – even if it means you have to change or abandon some ideas
That’s what I want to do to turn the mess into something cohesive. Without a yardstick, I can’t measure what to cut or keep, or how to connect the dots between the beginning and end (it’s just a big murky swamp of potential ideas). I let inspiration run amok when starting this so I’ve been struggling to shape it into… something with a direction.
Okay, awesome. I think you basically have the gist of Jim’s narrative argument formula – he may have specific words and ways of phrasing it for Subtext, but those are specific to that service so I wouldn’t want to speculate.
For all the story points that are part of the message, if you’re not sure I think you should go with your gut. Like for Start/Stop ask yourself whether Start pursuing or Stop avoiding works better for your message, and if you’re not sure (maybe either works for you) ask “does MC have a chip on his shoulder or a hole in his heart”?
Same with Outcome – does your message work better with saying “do this and you’ll fail and get consequence” or “do this and you’ll succeed at goal”. If you’re not sure, ask “do I want the ending to be bittersweet or triumphant?” (don’t forget triumph can be tempered by high costs, so don’t assume triumph must be a massive triumph)
I can redact my post if it’s a problem, but I think the article basically explained how those pieces fit into a statement.
It depends on the Goal. I think if it’s about how avoiding fears makes suffering worse and you’re better off stopping that, it only seems natural to have them face Failure but end up Good (I know Judgement is about MC, but I’d like other characters to feel ok too despite things maybe not working out exactly the way they wanted). Or maybe the failures along the way are part of the path to Success (so, Symptom/Response or Costs?) at some better state of mind?
I like the idea that if you start pursuing desires despite fears, you still might Fail and it will hurt, but it’s better than pining away never knowing (or missing out on learning something that could lead to Success. Pining away is the Consequence that MC starts in and wishes to leave). Then again, maybe it’s about how the characters need to be exposed to fears like failure to get over it. All this stuff is why it’s so hard to pick a Goal.
Hi @SharkCat
The Narrative Argument “formula” I put together is a combination of:
- MC Resolve
- MC Growth
- MC Crucial Element
- Story Outcome
- Story Judgment
Sometimes I toss in the Goal, other times the Consequence. I tried to make it something that wasn’t one-size fits all, but stretched to fit the narrative dynamics of the story in question.
Eventually you’ll be able to build your own from the inside out, but you should be able to pick up on the essential pieces. If you have a specific set of storypoints that you would like to know how a potential Narrative Argument works, feel free to post them here and I’ll do my best to help you out.
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Thanks. I’m embarrassed because it’s about the same story I’m always asking about (so I feel like an indecisive fool), but approaching it from “what message do you want to say?” rather than by what happens in the story sounds like a good way to go for me at this point, although as mlucas points out, both approaches have their place. I’m reminded of the phrase “write drunk, edit sober.”
Just a suggestion about Subtext-- it would be cool if after uploading a storyform if the app pulled the story points and arranged them into a statement like that. Maybe it could put in gists that the user chose, that way people could check to see if their storyform’s structure says what they want to say.
Anyway, I’m thinking of:
Resolve: Change
Growth: Start
Crucial Element/MC Solution: Pursuit
Outcome: Failure
Judgement: Good
Which I imagine works with a statement like: “If you start Pursuing your desires, you may not Succeed at getting what you want, but will find peace” (whether or not you succeed or fail, it’s better to try and know than be left pining and wondering “what if…?”)
or
Change
Stop
Success
Good
Crucial Element/MC Problem: Avoidance
“If you stop avoiding your fears, you can Succeed at living a fulfilling life.” Finding a Story Goal for “fulfilling life” sounds… nebulous. Innermost Desires? Do I have those two Storyform-to-English examples right?
I saw another, older article about how you can make a central conflict for a story by thinking of a true statement, then thinking of a context in which it isn’t true and, from how I understood it, one of those both-true-but-conflicting statements is MC’s POV and the other is IC’s. If so, can you use those to determine the best appreciations to assign for those throughlines?
This is already planned and part of the current structure 
In regards to the Narrative Argument, think less about writing it as an “if” statement, and more of a decisive argument - you’re making this argument, it’s up to the Audience to decide whether or not or “if” they should do it.
so with the first:
Peace of mind awaits those who start pursuing their desires, even if it means failing to get what you want
(I would try to be more specific about what the Obtaining actually is, it’s a little too general. In the latest Han Solo substory storyform, I set it to specifically “pursuing riches beyond belief” for Pursuit and “failing to pay off debts” for the Obtaining goal)
Second one is simpler: Stop avoiding your fears, and you can find love and happiness.
Fulfilling life is nebulous and more Obtaining in nature - if you’re trying to encode Subconscious I would make it specifically about those innermost desires like love, happiness, joy, etc.
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I had a mild epiphany that the narrative argument doesn’t necessarily require the OS concern/goal. I’m often mystified by the OS analysis, as I often feel like many OS concerns can apply to a given caper. I speculate (confabulate?) that perhaps this is why.
For example, I can’t seem to include any memories gist in the narrative argument for To Kill A Mockingbird.
Or, just speculating more, are some stories so rich that the OS concern comes across as the “means” and doesn’t sum it up as well as another term for the “ends”? For example, justice (or injustice for a failure) rather than memories.
Perhaps the story problem/solution is sometimes emphasized more than the OS concern.
Couldn’t agree more. The theme is subconcious at the start of an idea. It slowly reveals itself in the writing or the outlining phases (if you’re lucky).
I’d love to know what my theme is from the get go but this never happens (for me). I’ve come to terms with my process by realising that the story unfolds for me (the author) to keep me interested enough to write the thing. Like a mystery unfolding right before my eyes. Fun!
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The Narrative Arugment of To Kill a Mockingbird:
Peace of mind awaits those who start seeking fairness, even if it means failing to give an honest account of what happened.
The above is a combination of:
- Story Judgment of Good
- Main Character Resolve of Changed
- Main Character Growth of Start
- Main Character Crucial Element of Equity
- Story Outcome of Failure
- Story Goal of Memory
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What can a writer do for a litmus test if they have trouble pinpointing the Story Goal?
For my story arguing that you’ll feel better if you face fears than not, I could agree with “Stop avoiding your fears and you can find happiness and love” (Dividend = Becoming) as well as “Stop avoiding your fears and you can Become a better person” (Dividend = Innermost Desires) and similar things that sow 2nd-guessing in my mind.
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I was wondering if what makes the Goal of happiness (Innermost Desires) and Goal of Becoming feel similar to each other is each has the other as a Dividend in the storyforms I’ve tried (ex. Goal = Innermost Desires, Dividend = Becoming). I’m interested in those things as outcomes, so I don’t know where to focus. Maybe they’re both wrong for this.
I can’t write an OS for this thing. Nothing grabs me except for the characters and some ideas that may be neat, but I can’t see myself stretching out for the entire throughline and aren’t sure I can staple together. Anything else would feel tacked on. I don’t know if I can justify an OS focusing on IC trying to fix a fearful MC since that sounds like MC stuff. Every OS idea I’ve had feels forced, wrong, or undoable for me.
Can you forget about the MC and IC for a bit and focus on the other characters to understand what might work for the OS?
Or, can you focus solely on what message you want the most (use Goal, not Dividends for that) and then just build the OS up from scratch using Dramatica elements & gists? That might be kinda fun, actually.
I recall some advice I heard a long time ago (as a wannabe-writer teenager) about how sometimes you need a second idea to make a story work, like another idea you combine with the first one. You just put the first idea aside and wait for the second one to come. That might be something else you could try. (I’ve had this work for me spectacularly well … except that it took 15 years between the first and second idea! lol)
There are few others and they support the stuff about trying to deal with MC.
Part of the problem is not knowing what to use as the goal-- Becoming, Innermost Desires, Being (if you consider finding one’s place in life as a role) or maybe Obtaining but they Fail and learn something important about at least trying something new being better than not.
If there are 4 POVS/throughlines because one cannot express the problem directly, how can you identify a Story Goal?
I don’t think you need to identify anything if you go with this “message first” approach. You just need to choose one of those Types to be your OS Concern. It’s your choice because you’re consciously building the story from the message.
Jim already gave you a few to try:
- Peace of mind awaits those who start pursuing their desires, even if it means failing to make it as an actor (Obtaining & Failure)
- Stop avoiding your fears, and you can find love and happiness. (Subconscious)
Why not try a few more narrative arguments based on the other Concerns and Stop/Start, and then just pick the one you like best?