Is Faust a story, or a tale?

Struggling with something I’ve been working on, I’ve stumbled on a question I wanted to ask the good folk of Dramatica. Is the story of Faust a story, or a tale?

Here’s an overview of Faust taken directly from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faust

Faust is bored and depressed with his life as a scholar. After an attempt to take his own life, he calls on the Devil for further knowledge and magic powers with which to indulge all the pleasure and knowledge of the world. In response, the Devil’s representative, Mephistopheles, appears. He makes a bargain with Faust: Mephistopheles will serve Faust with his magic powers for a set number of years, but at the end of the term, the Devil will claim Faust’s soul, and Faust will be eternally damned. The term usually stipulated in the early tales is 24 years; one year for each of the hours in a day.

During the term of the bargain, Faust makes use of Mephistopheles in various ways. In many versions of the story, particularly Goethe’s drama, Mephistopheles helps Faust seduce a beautiful and innocent girl, usually named Gretchen, whose life is ultimately destroyed. However, Gretchen’s innocence saves her in the end, and she enters Heaven. In Goethe’s rendition, Faust is saved by God’s grace via his constant striving—in combination with Gretchen’s pleadings with God in the form of the Eternal Feminine. However, in the early tales, Faust is irrevocably corrupted and believes his sins cannot be forgiven; when the term ends, the Devil carries him off to Hell.

If the bargain the main character strikes can only have one outcome, if he’s dealing with a power of absolute evil, does it mean the Issue lacks a Counterpoint, that there’s nothing to balance the argument with?

Does that make sense? Am I asking the right question? :confused:

Thank you for any insight.

What is the Goal of the story? Because yes, if the story is just “Faust screws around with his powers for 24 years,” then there’s no argument to be had there.

On the other hand, if we think about Gretchen some more, we can spin the story less as “Faust screwing around with magical powers” and more “Faust trying to corrupt Gretchen to be like him.” However, he ultimately fails, as she is too pure to be corrupted by him. That’d be a bittersweet story, I think, because, as much as we think Faust’s a horrible creature for wanting to corrupt a lovely girl like Gretchen, the story’s still framed as a Success if he does so.

Now, the version I’m familiar with, I think it’s Goethe’s Faustus, has Faust’s bargain come at a different price: if there is ever a moment that Faust wishes would last forever, then the Devil will steal his soul. This, then, is the Goal. If Faust’s life ends before this event occurs, then he’s in the clear. That’s the inequity: live without experiencing a beautiful moment but save your soul, or experience true rapture and be cast into Hell.

Well, that’s a totally different story and not related to the Faustian bargain (but cool, I like it).

[rant] I think what I was trying to figure out for myself is this: absolutes suck. They’re just crappy writing. Pure evil, diabolical this and that. To hell with it. My villains have sweaty feet and forgot to brush their teeth this morning. Their pants feel too tight and they like picking at their navel fuzz. Another one can’t sleep at night without someone they trust being in the room with them. No more absolutes. Nobody’s perfect. [/rant]

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Wrt absolute evil characters, I think Dramatica comes to save the day. The characters you dislike are ones where all that defines them is that they’re evil. If you were to ask, “What is their Purpose? Their Motivation? Their Means of Evaluation?” the response you’d get would be, “Evil, evil, and evil! What didn’t you understand?” :stuck_out_tongue: But if you give that same character a Purpose of Equity, a Motivation of Control, and a Means of Evaluation of Process, suddenly we have a much more interesting character. (Who, by the way, is completely different from Aware/Control/Process, Equity/Support/Process, or Equity/Control/Cause.) That’s really what makes Dramatica so effective. You can hate the villain’s methods all you want, but at the end of the day, is Equity so wrong? Or haven’t you ever been driven by Control? Or haven’t you been stuck measuring things through Process? Characters of all shades of morality are most effective when we understand why they think the way they do. That doesn’t mean they can’t be unquestionably evil, but they are understandable.

I think the larger question is, “What alternative paradigm is presented to Faust’s personal issues that offer him a potentially different way to resolve his issues? Who represents this alternative perspective? What is Faust’s relationship with the person?”

As written above, I would say that Faust is presented as a tale. Goethe’s version offers an IC in the form of Gretchen, but it is unclear if this is more than a good v. evil representation – especially since God steps in and saves her soul. Was there any chance that she would adopt Faust’s position? (My guess is no.)

Imagine the story where Gretchen starts off as a pious individual, manages to get herself ‘debauched’ in the OS, but struggles to maintain her position that _________ (Love conquers all, God loves all his children, Anyone can repent if they believe…fill in the blank any way you want.) Independent of the bargain with Mephistopheles, which is part of the OS throughline, Faust would be challenged by Gretchen’s position because if it were true and he were able to adopt it it might lead to an alternative PERSONAL outcome.

Which leads to:

  • Faust adopts Gretchen’s position while Gretchen remains steadfast.
  • Faust stands his ground and Gretchen adopts Faust’s perspective.

Then you have the four possible endings:

  • Faust successfully breaks the agreement with Mephistopheles and is a happy camper
  • Faust is not able to break his agreement with Mephistopheles and spends eternity unhappily in hell
  • Faust successfully breaks the agreement with Mephistopheles but is unhappy anyway
  • Faust is not able to break his agreement with Mephistopheles but ends up a happy camper anyway

They key isn’t the endings but the four perspectives. That’s what makes the difference between a tale and a story.

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Thank you @chuntley. This helps me better understand the difference between a story and a tale.