That is true, but does it change over the course of the movie? Or is he more of a Guardian that has a special relationship with her?
[Incidentally, I am remembering that Harlan at one point said to Marta “I took him out of the will, just like you recommended”. Do I have that right? How would that affect things?]
I agree that the family is mostly OS, and all about manipulating each other.
Bickering and name calling. Sneaking around on each other. Deceiving each other. Trying to twist each other’s words, throwing each other under the bus, lying about this or that.
If the family is collectively the IC, then who else besides Marta do they affect and cause conflict with? The IC has an impact and creates conflict for everyone around them, yes?
That’s not exclusively Ransom. Both Harlan and Marta manipulate things about his death too. Marta sneaks around, climbing walls, wearing costumes, forcing people to look at the time, erasing tapes, throwing away evidence, etc.
Those are all the activities she does with Harlan, and then later with Ransom. It’s the game. Together (be it Harlan and Marta, or Ransom and Marta) they are playing the game. That’s the Activity of their relationships.
Can you share examples of this from other movies?
First one that comes to mind (pun intended) is Logan.
Xavier’s out of control mind powers literally affect everyone in the story.
Handoff to the girl, whose berserker attacks also affect more than just Logan himself.
Okay, I’m not remembering that movie well enough to really comment.
But, I’ve never thought about the IC that way. I think of the IC as someone only seen from the MC’s POV, so this idea doesn’t really jive with me.
The IC is also, just generally, part of the movie in the OS. Is that not enough? Or does their trouble have to emanate from their domain?
Put another way, don’t Marta’s MC actions to protect her mother also cause problems in the OS? She’s destroying/hiding evidence that the detective might need…
As far as I understand it, the IC is not just seen from the MC. The IC perspective is its own perspective that can influence everyone in the story.
I’m not sure we’re supposed to be connecting them like that. Theoretically, the IC could never interact with the MC or the OS, and the narrative would still work.
Marta’s MC problems shouldn’t really mix with the OS problems. That’s why they’re hers alone. Take Marta out of this story, and her MC problem should follow. She’ll still be the daughter of an illegal immigrant.
Isn’t the OS here about conceiving the true nature of Harlan’s death?
I agree on this. If there is any character who is impacting everyone, it’s Harlan (even after he’s dead). There are multiple times where he says “my mind’s made up” regarding his decisions about cutting off the family (ending Meg’s tuition, firing Walt from the publishing company, threatening to reveal Richard’s affair). He has the “fixed attitude” that each family member needs to build something of their own (and is setting Marta up for building something of her own by giving her the inheritance.) There is likely a handoff with Ransom in there. Someone pointed it out earlier, but Harlan even says “there’s so much of me in that kid. Confident, stupid, I dunno. Protected. Playing life like a game without consequence…”
While he and Marta have a relationship in the story, it doesn’t seem to change much, especially since Harlan is out of the picture after his death.
Is it possible that the RS is with Marta and Benoit? They have a lot of activities together as they investigate the crime. Seems like it goes from detective/suspect to fellow crime-solvers, or something like that.
It’s entirely possible. Many films have an RS that isn’t tied to the MC and IC. That being said, I think we get the most emotional punch from the relationship between Harlan and Marta.
If the RS is between them, I wouldn’t say it didn’t go anywhere. They start out as friends, and end up as family. She goes from being his trusted friend, to literally inheriting everything owed to Harlan’s family. Because she really is his family… the heir to his fortune and life.
I hadn’t thought of this until now, but I like this RS much better than any of the other relationships in the film.
Don’t you think that moving from Nurse/patient to Family (the sole inheritor of the money) is a significant change in the relationship?
Harlan is dead, yes, but just like with an IC, he’s not out of the picture – learning that Marta has inherited his money is the RS moment at the end that reveals how their relationship has changed – even if Marta didn’t yet know this.
Whoops cross-posed with you @JohnDusenberry
We basically said the same thing. Great minds, haha.
Yeah, I can see that. I agree that relationship certainly has the most heart. I’m trying to think of another film where a character in the RS is absent for a lot of the story… Any other films like that?
Hamlet?
Also the first Star Wars – though Ben is in a lot more of the movie than Harlan is in this one.
Plus the Player themselves doesn’t have to be physically present. The Impact of their POV is present, though.
Why wouldn’t this jive? Is it the part about impacting all, creating conflict for all, or both?
I think @MWollaeger is objecting to the idea that the IC has to impact all of the OS characters instead of just the MC (right?)
I never thought it was a thing that the IC (as IC) has to create conflict/impact everyone. I know that Jim’s approach to creating an IC throughline when writing it to just create an impactful character (not thinking too much about the specific impact on the MC). But I didn’t think that meant the IC has to influence everyone.
I don’t think the IC HAS to influence everyone, but he can and often does.
In any case, I think it’s becoming clear that we have:
MC Marta
IC Harlan
Changed
—
—
Linear
Decision
Optionlock
Success
Good
OS > Psychology
MC > Universe
IC > Mind
RS > Physics
Does everyone agree? Want to start looking at Concerns? Jump down to problem?
I’m not 100% convinced (yet) about MC being Universe instead of Mind. But maybe we should move on.
Regarding Concerns, my “genre” instinct (even before we decided on the Domains) was upper left – Conceptualizing/Past/Memory/Understanding seems pretty strong for a mystery like this.
What do you think? Starting with the OS, does Conceptualizing work? Anyone have a case for Being, Becoming or Conceiving instead?
I’ve found it’s pretty easy to confuse the two, given that the IC often incites the MC into its signposts.
Like in this, I think it’s possible that the IC’s influence on Marta makes her deal with memories and suppression for the Memory signpost… but Mind isn’t necessarily her problem she would take into another story. But her Situation is…
Maybe I’m wrong, and maybe looking underneath trying to assign the matching Concerns will help reveal that.