Don’t you think that moving from Nurse/patient to Family (the sole inheritor of the money) is a significant change in the relationship?
Harlan is dead, yes, but just like with an IC, he’s not out of the picture – learning that Marta has inherited his money is the RS moment at the end that reveals how their relationship has changed – even if Marta didn’t yet know this.
Whoops cross-posed with you @JohnDusenberry
We basically said the same thing. Great minds, haha.
Yeah, I can see that. I agree that relationship certainly has the most heart. I’m trying to think of another film where a character in the RS is absent for a lot of the story… Any other films like that?
Hamlet?
Also the first Star Wars – though Ben is in a lot more of the movie than Harlan is in this one.
Plus the Player themselves doesn’t have to be physically present. The Impact of their POV is present, though.
Why wouldn’t this jive? Is it the part about impacting all, creating conflict for all, or both?
I think @MWollaeger is objecting to the idea that the IC has to impact all of the OS characters instead of just the MC (right?)
I never thought it was a thing that the IC (as IC) has to create conflict/impact everyone. I know that Jim’s approach to creating an IC throughline when writing it to just create an impactful character (not thinking too much about the specific impact on the MC). But I didn’t think that meant the IC has to influence everyone.
I don’t think the IC HAS to influence everyone, but he can and often does.
In any case, I think it’s becoming clear that we have:
MC Marta
IC Harlan
Changed
—
—
Linear
Decision
Optionlock
Success
Good
OS > Psychology
MC > Universe
IC > Mind
RS > Physics
Does everyone agree? Want to start looking at Concerns? Jump down to problem?
I’m not 100% convinced (yet) about MC being Universe instead of Mind. But maybe we should move on.
Regarding Concerns, my “genre” instinct (even before we decided on the Domains) was upper left – Conceptualizing/Past/Memory/Understanding seems pretty strong for a mystery like this.
What do you think? Starting with the OS, does Conceptualizing work? Anyone have a case for Being, Becoming or Conceiving instead?
I’ve found it’s pretty easy to confuse the two, given that the IC often incites the MC into its signposts.
Like in this, I think it’s possible that the IC’s influence on Marta makes her deal with memories and suppression for the Memory signpost… but Mind isn’t necessarily her problem she would take into another story. But her Situation is…
Maybe I’m wrong, and maybe looking underneath trying to assign the matching Concerns will help reveal that.
I agree. And I got fixated on the Issue/Unique Ability of Falsehood and jumped ahead, but there might be some other combination that works at that level. So maybe let’s try the Concerns.
How do you feel about OS of Conceptualizing? Everyone is scheming and making plans; the Goal could be something like “unraveling the murderer’s scheme” …
Hmmm… at first that seems like a no brainer, but is that really what’s causing conflict, vs. just the subject matter of what happens in the movie?
Do you think the others would fit?
MC: Past-ing?
IC: Memory-ing?
RS: Understanding?
That doesn’t seem right to me.
I would guess the real conflict is in Conceiving. Everyone can’t conceive why Harlan would change the will, why he would kill himself, why he would give it all to Marta.
Putting…
MC in Present - Marta dealing with current events, living in the moment with a particular group
IC in Conscious - Harlan reasoning, thinking seriously about something, changing one’s opinion…
RS in Learning - Learning how to overcome something, learning to play something (Harlan’s game), etc
That sounds like a good signpost – but is it the conflict throughout the movie? It seems like it’s the various plans that cause conflict – Harlan’s plan to save Marta, Ransom’s initial plan to kill Harlan, Harlan’s plan to cut everyone out of the will…
Harlan and Marta have a mutual Understanding that no one else has–they Understand each other in a way that no one else does, and this is the heart of their relationship. But also, it is that tragic misunderstanding between them that causes him to kill himself.
If we accept that Marta is in Situation, then isn’t it her Past (her background) that’s the source of her whole conflict? But also, she’s living with what she did to Harlan, which certainly seems to cause inner turmoil for her. (Though guilt is often also Memory…)
Harlan is concerned with his legacy.
So for Pasting, which would specifically be Marta’s issues?
FATE
PREDICTION
INTERDICTION
DESTINY
Vs. Presenting
WORK
ATTRACTION
REPULSION
ATTEMPT
What are our examples?
I think you are right about Conceptualizing, et al.
And Marta Past-ing being the thing she did with Harlan.
Also Harlan suppressing: forcibly putting an end to… keeping the inheritance away from his family, not telling them the details until he’s gone, the publishing business, Joni’s money supply, the secret of the affair (if you don’t tell her I will), telling Marta to suppress information, etc.
This seems like the only element of understanding that creates conflict in their relationship. The misunderstanding.
We might already be past this, but I find the first quad more on point for her.
Sorry to be difficult and flip-flopping though, but other than the fact that her mother is undocumented, I am still finding it easier to see Marta in Mind. So if we look at the Issues under MIND/MEMORY we have:
Meanwhile, for Harlan:
I could probably flip these but it’s not as immediately obvious to me.
Not sure if this is right, but I try to think of the RS storypoints as either causing conflict or as the way for the relationship to grow. So this kind of secret mutual understanding they have – she knows things about him that not even his family does, he understands her family problems – basically, the fact that they understand each other in a way that none of the other characters do is the basis of their relationship, and, we can surmise, the reason that he leaves everything to her.
Sorry if that’s too vague. I could try to find better examples.
Maybe someone can still convince me why Marta is more of a Do-er than a Be-er?
The whole scene after she thinks Harlan is poisoned, she is panicked, frozen, while Harlan has to convince her to take action in order to save her family, and what action to take, though of course some of this is OS. But he’s not asking her her to adapt herself to her environment. He’s asking her to take action when her inclination is not to.
Why does it feel like such a change when she decides to accept the money? Because she has gone from being a doormat who is more than willing to go along to get along to someone who is taking charge of her life (e.g. who realizes that with enough money she can hire her own lawyers). That sound a lot more like Be-er to Do-er than Do-er to Be-er to me.
I am filled with Uncertainty… haha.
I can definitely see how Understanding is the force driving their relationship.
I could see Marta in Truth also because she can’t tell the truth about what she did.
I also like seeing perception vs. actuality under that…
Hmmmmmm…
No — I’m glad you questioned it. I agree those issues and the illustrations make more sense the way you laid them out with Marta in Mind and Harlan in Universe.
I realized I was thinking of Marta as a Do-er more in her role in the OS, rather than with her personal issues. I’m convinced now she is a be-er. She has to endure the family’s racist comments to keep her job. That last shot of her with the mug standing over the family is a great illustration of a new status — “My house, my rules.” Definitely more of a universe thing than a new attitude, like I was suggesting earlier.