Haha that’s really funny cuz to me it feels very much like the first one and not at all like the second… 
Oy vey!
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Lol!
I guess we are an impasse! (At least until Jim finally sees it and can settle this for us ).
Keep going though – I’ll entertain any Future/Obtaining/Becoming/Subconscious storyform you come up with. (I’ve been wrong more than once 
).
Chris said a few things last night at the User Group meeting about Be-ers that got me thinking…
We were going over “A Few Good Men,” talking about the Tom Cruise character.
He said (about Tom’s character):
“Presented with a problem, he talks his way out of it. Instead of agreeing to go to court, he bargains for a plea deal. When he’s up against a problem, he goes for his source of comfort.”
And also this about Be-ers in general:
“An active Be-er has a commanding presence. They demand attention and affect the world around him by simply being who they are.”
So, to me… that sounds a LOT more like Harlan/Ransom than Marta.
I feel like we could easily swap names in that statement about Tom’s character for Harlan/Ransom and it would work better than Marta.
Harlan: “Presented with a problem, Harlan talks his way out of it. Instead of agreeing to call for help, he schemes a way to cover it up.”
Ransom: “Presented with a problem, Ransom talks his way out of it. Instead of agreeing to be interviewed, he finds a way to avoid the cops.”
vs.
Marta: “Presented with a problem, Marta talks her way out of it. Instead of calling for help, she bargains with Harlan to find a way out.”
(Doesn’t quite sound right with Marta, huh?)
Same thing with his definition:
“Harlan has a commanding presence. He demands attention and affects the world around him by simply being who he is.”
“Ransom has a commanding presence. He demands attention and affects the world around him by simply being who he is.”
“Marta has a commanding presence. He demands attention and affects the world around him by simply being who he is.”
Which one feels right to you?
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Some examples of how this kind of response doesn’t fill our donut hole:
- Harlan asks her to pull off the switch-a-roo heist… she goes through with it.
- Benoit asking her to join his team, she resists a tiny bit, but ultimately agrees and shows up for work the next day.
- Asked to hold down the video tape, Marta does it without refusing and then takes it into her own hands to erase the tape.
etc…
Some examples of Ransom being an active Be-er:
EXT. THROMBEY ESTATE FRONT DRIVE
The man kicks off the dogs and limps toward the house,
cursing. Lieutenant Elliott and Trooper Wagner step out
onto the porch.
LIEUTENANT ELLIOTT Hugh Drysdale?
RANSOM Ransom. Call me Ransom, my middle name. The help call me Hugh.
LIEUTENANT ELLIOTT I'm Lieutenant Elliott, this is officer Wagner, we'd like to ask you a few questions about the night of
RANSOM Uh huh.
He blows past them and into the house.
INT. LIVING ROOM
Walt, Donna and Jacob (nose in his phone) sit around the
room. Linda and Richard stand, on their phones. Ransom
breezes in, bumping Donna who YELPS, startled.
Elliott and Wagner follow.
TROOPER WAGNER Sir excuse me, we are officers of the law.
RANSOM You gonna run me in? I don't feel like talking. I'm distraught.
Oy!
I’ll have to listen to that user’s group. I fully admit that this has been a blind spot for me before, so I definitely could be missing something.
You make some good points, and your examples do sound more like Harlan/Ransom than Marta. But I could come up with other examples that seem like the reverse (e.g. Caleb/Ava in Ex Machina).
I’m also thinking I need to rewatch the movie.
Part of the problem I think we’re having here is that any story point taken out of context can be argued ad infinitum. Be-er/Do-er are particularly hard because a) it’s a preference, not an absolute and b) it’s always possible a specific example is looking at the OS, not the MC/IC throughline. So you argue Ransom storming off is Be-er, and I argue that Marta not telling her sister to turn off CSI is Be-er.
Certainly being undocumented and accused of murder sounds like a Situation! And that’s what I stared with. But the problem I have with that is that the issues/problems underneath Mind/Memory (see my proposed storyform) feel a lot more accurate to me than Universe/Past – in fact, they feel right on. I’ve tried flipping them, but it doesn’t fit nearly as well.
The other possibility is that we’ve gotten the Domains/Concerns completely wrong on this. But what would be the alternative? You suggested OS Physics/Obtaining. But what other crime/mystery (comedy or drama) can you think of that falls into that category? Genre-wise, I would immediately peg a mystery like this in either OS Understanding or Conceptualizing. The fact that there’s so much manipulation going on makes me think Conceptualizing is a better fit.
There are other options – I can think of mystery thrillers that have an OS Concern of Progress – but the ones I can think of there are serial killer crime thrillers. Conceiving maybe. I can’t think of any other mystery that has lower left concerns. I’m sure there are some–but I think they would be outliers. Does this movie really feel so different from other mysteries? I would take an Occam’s Razor approach here – in the absence of really compelling evidence to the contrary, I would put the OS in the most obvious place.
Which set “feels” more like Knives Out?
Mysteries with OS in Physics:
The Usual Suspects
The Next Generation: Series Finale
The Prestige
Winter’s Bone
Chinatown
Contact
Mysteries with OS in Psychology
Flightplan
In the Heat of the Night
Klute
Westworld
North by Northwest
Rear Window
Arrival
OR
just to really throw a wrench in this…
There’s a whole ton of Mysteries with the OS in Universe:
Rebecca
Inside Man
Michael Clayton
Everything is Illuminated
The Prestige
… even a few in Mind… Haha.
Maybe let’s focus on making sure we’ve defined the Domains properly, just in plain english.
You have The Prestige in there twice
And I think Arrival is in Physics.
There are not a lot in there that seem too similar to this one, though I guess Rear Window might be one.
So how would you describe the OS?
Whoops, typos! Haha. But I think it’s clear Mysteries don’t have to be in Psychology.
So the Overall Story… what about:
Figuring out the truth about Harlan’s demise, and the benefactors attached to the results of that.
I think the benefactors part adds too much? What about just, “figuring out who killed Harlan Thromby” ?
What about Finding out who killed Harlan Thromby?
Just thinking of the audience experience and the author’s pov…
We as the audience are made to think we know who killed him halfway through the movie, until that’s proven otherwise.
I’m not sure if that’ll make a significant different in domains, but maybe… it’s not so much “figuring out” (which is maybe Thought), than it is Finding out (which is maybe Ability).
I think that works. What’s next?
MC: Marta (do we need to say anything else?)
Haha… yeah… hmm…
Wanna skip her and start moving down the OS?
I think we’re settled on the story dynamics, right?
If we’re calling her CHANGED, what’s the illustration of that change we see happen on screen?
It has to be the moment she lies … right?
The very beginning of the script (p. 2) is that scene where she’s in her apartment with her mom and sister.
The very end is her looking out “from the house she owns”.
The thing that’s always stuck with me on that is… it’s not the only time she does that, and she also still pukes. Horribly so.
She pukes when Benoit first brings up the condition, holds it in for a moment… then pukes in the planter.
She pukes when she lies at the end of her interview with Benoit… holds it in long enough to leave, then pukes in the bathroom.
Then she lies again after the car chase, holds it in slightly longer, then pukes in the Big Gulp.
Then she lies on the phone, holds it in the longest, then pukes in Ransom’s face.
…
Maybe the puking thing is the Benchmark!!
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And what storypoint Type would express that?
Preconscious! Gagging at the thought of Lies!
Which gets better and better as things go on.
HAH! Perhaps she is in Mind afterall…
And I’m wondering if she’s Steadfast…
I wonder if it has more to do with her having a good heart.
And I wonder if Ransom changes when he comes out and admits everything he did, then tries to stab her right in front of everyone.
Benoit mentions several times about Marta’s “kind heart.” So maybe she steadfast… It’s somewhat ambiguous. I took another look at the end of the script – Benoit says to her: “You won not by playing the game Harlan’s way, but yours.” And she replies: “I should help them. Right?” She’s always helped the family, so if she was steadfast, she would keep helping the family. If changed, she would follow through with Harlan’s plan of cutting them loose. Does her standing on the balcony holding the “my house, my rules” mug mean she’s not going to help them? It’s somewhat up to interpretation, but based on Benoit saying “I have a feeling you’ll follow your heart” it does seem like she will keep helping the family, just on her own terms.
I suppose Ransom confessing to Fran’s murder could be a change.
This really is a donut hole inside a donut hole…
Love it!
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Her role was really to help Harlan, though, right? Not the family. Fran was the housekeeper, the one who took care of the family affairs.
Right. She was helping Harlan as his nurse and helping him in the cover-up scheme. And she helps Benoit in the investigation. I guess my point is just that she seems to be driven to help or driven by her kind heart – so did she become more like Harlan who wanted to cut them out (the “my house, my rules” attitude) or is she going to continue being helpful to others? Like everything else in this movie, I can kinda see it both ways… 
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