Knives Out Analysis

analysis
#102

I would say so. It’s the conversation between Ransom and Harlan at the party – Ransom finds out, storms off and then everything kicks off. That seems like a safe bet.

This is why I think Harlan is either not the IC or a hand-off IC. To me, Ransom fits the bill so much better. Everytime I think of Harlan’s influence on Marta, I just keep thinking of the portrait. There are a few moments where she looks at the portrait when she does something, and the portrait changes its expression subtly every time – as if it’s offering some kind of commentary on her actions. It’s quite a stretch to think of that as an IC moment, but it’s the only thing that keeps returning to my mind.

Whereas Ransom – Walt immediately sums up his ‘Universe’:

WALT: But he’s always been the black sheep of the family, and I’m not, I, I keep stuff like this in the family, but with Ransom, he’s never had a job.

He’s the black sheep; he’s never had to work, instead taking money from his parents; he’s apparently untraceable to the investigators. His influence on Marta, meanwhile, comes from his position:

RANSOM: After I left the party, though. I was driving fast, nowhere, just in the night. And I got this weird… clarity. That from here on I was going to have to do for myself. And that felt… good. The old bastard.

Ransom is a lone wolf. He’s in it for himself, he’s not interested in helping anyone or supporting his family. He is alone, and he encourages/convinces Marta to do the same thing – take her cut and run (even though he’s already set her up), leave everybody behind. Out for herself.

And as for the do-er thing – doesn’t he load her up with food and get an empty bowl just to make sure she can’t lie to him?

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#103

I see those points, but I also am a bit wary of Jim’s repeated warning that it’s easy to see everything as a situation.

So… Just to play devil’s advocate, how is Ransom’s Situation different than everyone else’s? And how does him being the black sheep cause conflict for Marta?

It seems everyone has some motivation to have potentially killed Harlan, right? Some situation they’re stuck in?

Jodi and Meg - cut off financially after stealing from Harlan.
Morris - between a rock and a hard place with the info about his affair.
Linda - living under her father’s shadow
even Alan - stuck as the reader of the will, taking the abuse from an angry family.

What’s the conflict created for Marta by Ransom’s situation?

Ransom: I’m the black sheep, and I am going to do for myself.
(which btw, to me sounds a lot like a fixed attitude, not a situation)

So what’s his POV? Using that conflict formula:

Maybe:
(Ransom) People need to be brutal in order to claim what’s theirs, unless…
(Marta) fortune awaits those with kindness in their heart.

#104

Isn’t this a prime example of manipulation, though? OS stuff?

#105

Hmm … you have some good points there :thinking:.

Maybe @jhay is right and Ransom is mostly IC (and Harlan/Marta are RS?).

Or, maybe we’re back to the whole family being the IC …

#106

I’ve been time-crunched out of the conversation. Sorry.

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#107

So about the puking thing…

Been thinking that over. Where is the problem in that?

I need to not lie in order to avoid puking, unless
lying will save my family from deportation.

That’s her personal dilemma, right?
So, is that a problem of Mind? or a problem of Situation?

What about this:
She has to lie to save her family.
But she can’t lie because she’ll puke.
If she pukes, they’ll know she’s lying and her family is in jeopardy.

It feels like that conflict is one of situation to me, but I’m honestly not certain.
She’s confronted at every turn with the dilemma of puke-lying, or saving her family.

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#108

But all of these are conflicts stemming from Psychology or Manipulation, not Situation – Joni lied to Harlan about the double drop; Richard is lying to his wife; Linda is concealing the loan she took from her parents to appear ‘self-made’, and Alan is directly suffering the dysfunction of the family.

Ransom, meanwhile, is literally isolated from the rest of the family. He’s considered the family disappointment, he doesn’t attend family events like the funeral, he lives so far from everyone else that even the investigators can’t contact him. Not only does he have the worst reputation of the whole family (worse than the masturbating Nazi kid), but he’s literally, physically separated from them.

I’d have to re-read the Narrative First articles on that technique before I even try and approach it like that (I’m not so good with the Dramatica definition of conflict just yet), and I’d have to rewatch the movie to give you clear examples of the conflict inspired by him.

And while I think the MC & IC in the story are pretty weak in general, I think ‘I’m the black sheep, and I am going to do for myself’ is a bit too simplistic a way of defining the perspective. That said, I can’t think of a better one at the moment. But from the moment Marta climbs into his car, Marta’s conflict becomes a LOT more physical – she’s chased by the police, she gets phone calls from the family trying to talk her around, she gets threatened, etc.

Again, I’d have to see it again to give some concrete examples – this is all coming from memory of a movie I saw a month ago.

Yeah, I could see an argument being made for that. I’d have to see it again, but I can see where you’re coming from.

Donut holes in donut holes, man. :joy:

I still think (and I know that this quad has not been argued by anybody, I’ll think of a full argument some other time) that ‘puking at the thought of lying’ is a total illustration of Preconscious. It could be a benchmark, maybe, but it reminds me so much of ‘gagging at the thought of eggs’ that I can’t think of it any other way.

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#109

I’m not saying it isn’t a clear illustration of that, but I’m not so sure it’s the source of her inequity. I puke when I have to lie. Okay, so what? What’s the problem with that? So she lies and then pukes. What does that have to do with conflict?

She lied before at the “mafia game last fourth of july,” as Ransom brings up. Was that a problem for her, though?

I just think more has to be factored in to her puking to make it a problem for her, and the only way I can see that is if she’s pinned in a situation where she has to lie, and the IC (being in Mind) keeps pushing her to lie because of the IC Signposts or Benchmark.

Puke-lying is a problem for Marta when:

  • She is under investigation for murder.
  • Her family is at risk of deportation.

Conflict surrounding the situation, right?

If she were in Mind as a source of inequity, I feel like that would look more like Finding Nemo:

People need to stay home in order to make sure nothing happens to them, unless…
nothing can happen to you if you just stay at home.

A conflict about the way of thinking, right?

#110

At this point I’m just rationalizing my position :slight_smile: but here’s how it might be in Mind/Memory/Falsehood (or Truth).

Mind/Memory: Is Marta’s real problem her external situation, or the fact that she has to deal with peoples’ prejudice? People forget where she’s from. Is this just storytelling? I think we’re meant to see this as a source of conflict, another sign of racism that simmers not so deeply under the surface. I am thinking of the scene where Richard calls her over in the middle of a half-drunken rant to talk about how her family came over “the right way”.

When I was thinking about this first, I was wondering if she was in Situation and the “collective” IC of the family was in Mind. But a simpler explanation I think is that she as MC has to deal with everyone else’s racism.

Falsehood/Truth: It’s not just that her mother is undocumented that’s the problem. It’s the fact that she must hide her family’s status; but this hiding causes her inner turmoil. It’s the secret that’s the problem.

But there are also a few psychological thrillers that have the MC in Mind. It’s not exactly a mystery in the same way, but this movie feels to me a little bit like Get Out (in fact, I was wondering if it might be the same storyform). Get Out has an MC in Mind – he has to deal with everyone else’s barely-hidden racism.

#111

Are they really racist against her though?
They definitely use the issue with her mom as leverage to try and keep their inheritance, but other than being oblivious to her origin, or in fact assuming she’s here legally… that doesn’t seem like the overall problem between them and her to me.

Get Out definitely had issues of race in it, but I feel like this was more about who deserves the inheritance and why, regardless of race. Or at least without race at the center of the conflict.

Marta’s tolerated the family members who might be racist for a long while now, but it’s never really been a problem.
That element is only factored into the problem in the setting of these circumstances.

#112

A lot of interesting points… I watched again last night in light of this conversation and one thing that struck me is that it’s mostly OS. I think there is a complete story, but the MC, IC, and RS through lines are pretty dialed back, which I think makes analysis trickier.

One line that stuck out to me re: Marta’s puking – she says: “Just the thought of lying, yeah, it makes me puke.” So would that make it a Mind thing? And in many of the scenes, Marta comes across as very panicked and afraid, while Harlan totally takes charge and does things to rectify the situation. Even though she is looking for the Naloxone and trying to save Harlan’s life, she’s so frozen in fear (like when Jodi comes to the door.)

And much of what happened that night is seen through her Memory – and when she remembers, she often has a physical reaction after. Like remembering is painful for her, which seems to put her in a concern of Memory.

Another example that seemed like Mind – when Harlan kills himself, she suppresses her scream, then regains her composure. She changes herself.

I definitely think there is a handoff between Harlan and Ransom. The line that seemed to illustrate it was at the diner, Ransom says, “I can help you and we can fool them all and get away with it…” which is basically the same thing Harlan says to her earlier.

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#113

Well again, my thought on this is… how is that conflict?

Say it’s Memory (supression, she can’t suppress her vomit)…
And Falsehood… telling lies… and on down the chart…

Yes, the thought of lying makes her puke. Yes that could be considered Impuslive Response, but so what?

The smell of cats makes me sneeze. That’s an equity.
Where is the imbalance in that?

I only sneeze around the smell of cats when I’m put into a room with cats.
So, stuck in a room with cats is my bigger problem, right?

Or am I not thinking about this the right way?

#114

Well, if you didn’t sneeze at cats, it wouldn’t be such a problem being in a room with cats, would it? I think this is where we have to somehow get to the author’s intent in the story. Is the problem cats, or is it sneezing at cats? Take either one away and you don’t have a problem (unless you hate cats for some other reason!)

If she can’t lie, she has to go through life hoping that no one ever asks her a direct question that forces her to lie!

I do think the MC line is pretty dialed back as @mike.d said. But given that it has to do with her mother’s status, I think we can infer that the inability to lie causes her inner turmoil (conflict).

Is the author telling us that Marta’s turmoil stems from her situation, or from her difficulty hiding her situation because of who she is? I guess what I’m saying is in context to me it seems like the latter.

(In Batman Begins, is Batman’s problem that he is in the Situation of being a orphan? Not according to the official storyform…)

Again, I go back to that scene where her sister is watching CSI. It’s not immediately apparent when we see it, but in retrospect we know that at that that point, Marta believes that she is responsible for Harlan’s death and is probably terrified that the police will start questioning her at any moment. And her response is … to put her head on the table, cry and say it’s okay, you can keep watching your show. (Problem-solving style = deal internally).

She has internal conflict. How does she (or the storymind) resolve it? By switching the context and Do-ing something to which puts her into an entirely different Situation.

#115

This was taken from an article I read about the film. Not from Rian himself, but I think it speaks to this discussion:

“Knives Out hints at the self-righteous Thrombeys’ racist views of Latino people and immigrants in general well before they target Marta and threaten to have her mother detained. In the film’s early flashbacks, the Thrombeys each referred to Marta’s country of origin as a different place. To one, she was a lovely young woman from Ecuador; to another, Marta hailed from Paraguay. Their cluelessness is played for comedic relief as the film’s tension builds, and Johnson’s message is clear: The Thrombeys’ ignorance is the joke, not Marta’s heritage.”

and…

Toward the frenetic ending, Detective Blanc discovers which Thrombey relative really conspired to kill Harlan. Marta’s morphine mistake is shown to have been a setup: Someone else had switched the medicine labels, meaning Marta hadn’t erred on the job. As ever, she’d been paying attention to Harlan, and to his needs. The revelation is at once tragic—Harlan didn’t have to die in order to save her—and liberating. No longer fearing a future of incarceration, Marta is finally able to relish the one thing the Thrombeys most want to deny her: peace.

Maybe we’re looking at this all the wrong way.

Maybe Marta’s MC problem has more to do with the Future… what will happen to her/her family. I’m thinking of those scenes when she comes back home, looking at her mother. You can almost hear her thoughts, “Oh mom, what is going to happen to you? To us?!” It seems she’s the only one concerned with that in the film.
Even Ransom, who actually committed the crime, isn’t concerned with the future. He’s concerned with getting what he’s owed.

Permit me to entertain this:

MC Marta: Universe, Future – Will I get away with the coverup/Will I and my family be deported?

IC Harlan/Ransom: Mind, Subconscious: All that talk about Harlan subconsciously treating his family the way he did, what he wished he could do instead. Ransom being rejected by a particular group. Desiring the inheritance for himself, or just desiring to do things for himself on his own. In for a penny in for a pound.

And here’s the twist… I can almost see OS and RS switched in this case.

We made the assumption that the OS is in Psychology, but could all that Psychology stuff really be RS? And the Obtaining (catching the bad guy, busting someone, acquiring something, etc) be the OS?

**Sidenote: This arrangement would also put this storyform in the same place as Rian’s previous film, The Last Jedi. Same mind telling another story. His version of a mystery–which did feel pretty fresh/unique to me.

Also, from Subtext. Mystery Trends:

Screen Shot 2020-01-14 at 3.30.11 PM.png1282×864 73.1 KB

#116

You may be on to something. I was starting to think something along the same line. I kept looking at Help the problem – and especially watching it again there are so many places where “help” causes conflict – Harlan helping Marta get away with the supposed crime, the family saying that they’ll “take care” of Marta, derogatorily referring to the employees as “the help,” Benoit asking for Marta’s help in the investigation, Ransom pretending to be helpful to Marta. And for Marta, personally, it’s established that she’s a helpful person/nurse with a good heart.

I looked up comedic mystery in subtext but there aren’t any – but it would seem that a comedic mystery would have a different feel than a typical mystery.

This does seem to be her concern – something that would happen in the future.

It still seems like the OS is psychology due to all the manipulations and dysfunctions. And Becoming has a lot of gists that apply: Becoming vengeful (Ransom), being dead (Harlan), maturing into something better (what Harlan wants for the family), changing the will, the family devolving, Marta and Benoit becoming a crime fighting team…

And for the RS – Obtaining: getting an inheritance, completing your mission, gaining a new family…

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#117

Yeah… and traditionally the concerns of Comedies are pretty evenly split between Desire and Ability.
Hard to gauge that.

My question with that stuff is, how are those examples of the Activities Marta & Harlan do together?
vs.
RS in Becoming: Becoming a Family, Being Transformed by someone, creating a new family dynamic.

To me, it seems that if I were to define in plain english the relationship between Marta and Harlan, it would be that they formed their own little family, and when it came time for Harlan to pass on his will, he gave it to her, of course, as she was the only one who treated him like family, and vis. versa. Together, they became a family.

#118

Hmm … maybe? It would make sense that Marta would be concerned about her Future, and I could see it as a Signpost (if she is in Situation), but is it the main concern?

Genre-wise there are obviously a ton of different kinds of Obtaining stories, but I see very few actual mysteries in there. Seems like they’re mostly action comedies or dramas. (I haven’t seen L.A. Confidential – is that a mystery? Subtext says Crime Drama).

I agree with @mike.d though:

However, I didn’t see any OS Becoming stories that look like this. Most are straight up Dramas or Comedies (e.g. 40-Year Old Virgin, Notting Hill, Brooklyn).

#119

I mean… I think so.
I think if I had to wager a guess, the Benchmark for her would likely be Progress, which checks out. Maybe Past… but I like what Progress would look like:

What happens in the future is determined by:
Thinking she’s in the clear with the investigation, until Benoit shows up poking around again.
She gets past the investigations, until he enlists her to work with him.
He’s getting closer to finding out the truth, until the inheritance changes everything.
Working with Ransom she receives a note, starting the wild goose chase about the evidence.

#120

I don’t know…I find it very hard to see this as a lower-left story. You could make a case (maybe) about Marta and the Future, but to my mind that could just as easily be a Signpost of Subconscious…

I would be interested to hear what the Contextual Subgenre master @jhay has to say :slight_smile:

I’m not going to ping her here (because spoilers) but a while ago Rachel Blot put together her impressions of what different Concern quads feel like. It’s not canon – just her impressions–but I’ve found them generally useful.

Future - Obtaining - Becoming - Subconscious : stories about loss and gains. Tangible thing at the end of the road (=/= direction). Construction or destruction, opportunities to seize. Deep desires / fears and complete transformation of world and characters. Life-changing, inability to go back.

vs.

Past - Understanding - Conceptualizing - Memory : stories about burdens. Guilt and obsession, finding relief and moving on or getting consumed by one’s demons. Skeletons in the closet ; shining the light on something from the past, figuring how things fit together, finding the truth or entertaining a lie.

This story feels much more like the second one to me (whatever the arrangement of Domains).

#121

As long as we’re here, maybe we should put our cards on the table. Here’s what I think the story form throughlines are, down through problem and solution. Instead of illustrating, I’ve pasted in existing gists that I think are self-evident.

@JohnDusenberry I know we don’t agree on the MC/IC Domain and Concern, but assume I’m right on those for a minute and read through the rest. I feel like it fits pretty well.

OS

DOMAIN/CONCERN: Psychology/Conceptualizing: for all the reasons we discussed.

ISSUE: Circumstances:

  • being low man on the totem pole
  • being in good (or poor) standing with someone
  • being well positioned
  • being of low status

PROBLEM: Equity

  • Looking for a Square Deal from Something
  • Being Treated as an Equal with a Particular Group
  • being equitable toward someone
  • being fair about something
  • seeking justice for someone

SOLUTION: Inequity

  • Creating Disparity with a Particular Group
  • showing favoritism
  • unbalancing someone
  • making things unequal

MC

DOMAIN/CONCERN: Mind/Memory: for all the reasons we discussed.

ISSUE: Falsehood

  • telling lies to someone
  • being framed for something
  • feigning ignorance
  • providing false clues
  • making false statements
  • covering up something
  • telling a white lie
  • covering up a murder

PROBLEM: Equity

  • seeking stability
  • playing fair
  • being treated as an equal by someone (or not being treated as an equal)
  • being nonpartisan

SOLUTION: Inequity

  • Making something unequal
  • showing favoritism for oneself

UNIQUE ABILITY: Falsehood (being able to lie…for a minute)

IC (Harlan/Ransom handoff)

DOMAIN/CONCERN: Universe/Past: for the reasons we discussed

ISSUE: Destiny

  • Setting Someone’s Course
  • Following an Inescapable Path
  • Having an Unhappy Destiny
  • resisting someone’s misfortune
  • succumbing to inevitability
  • seeing the writing on the wall

DRIVE (PROBLEM): Projection

  • Making Dire Projections about a Particular Group
  • Anticipating How Things Will Be
  • Extrapolating Something
  • Projecting the Present into the Future
  • Anticipating How Things Will Be for Someone
  • inferring something from the past into the future

RS
DOMAIN: Physics

  • playing with someone
  • helping someone
  • competing with a particular group

CONCERN: Understanding

  • Being Misunderstood by a Particular Group
  • Having an Understanding with Someone
  • Comprehending Someone
  • having an understanding of one’s own true character and feelings
  • getting a particular group’s signals crossed

ISSUE: Interpretation

  • interpreting someone’s intentions
  • making sense of something
  • being misinterpreted

PROBLEM: Actuality

  • Seeing the True State of Things
  • Seeing Someone as He/She Truly Is
  • seeing the reality of imminent death

SOLUTION: Perception

  • Keeping Up Something’s Appearances