Mouin Rouge's ending

Analysis and Review
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The official storyform has Moulin Rouge as a Tragedy (Failure/Bad), but I rewatched this last night (first time since seeing it in the theatre back in 2001!) and the ending definitely felt more bittersweet. There is a clear shift in the emotions of the MC Christian (Ewan McGregor) in the future “writing the story” part. At first the Paris background is shown as bleak and colorless, he’s dischevelled and choking down whisky between every sentence. And then when he gets to the end of the story (final scene) all the color comes back and he smiles. So I would suggest Virtuous (Failure/Good).

(You could almost make an argument for Success if the Goal was to remake the Moulin Rouge. But in the future scenes it looks like the Moulin Rouge has closed down, so perhaps the Duke got the title after his contract wasn’t fulfilled and shuttered it. Failure makes the most sense here, and fits all the characters’ final outlook, which perhaps matters more than the Goal in a Holistic story anyway.)

I also think a Virtuous argument would work better, since the one in Subtxt doesn’t sound like the right message for the story:

When it comes to romance, going too far and becoming overly possessive towards one’s partner can inhibit growth and distort the relationship.

The story is pretty clear in its argument with the line “the greatest thing you’ll ever know is to love and be loved in return”, whereas the above seems to disagree with that. (In Subtxt a Holistic Virtuous story is called Transcendent, which fits the story’s message around the love that Christian and Satine shared.)

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Bittersweet works because their love and they will live forever through the story. Her body died, the Moulin Rouge closed but it will be open forever with her singing and love through the words. It would be success if he sold the story for a lot of money … haha.

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Wait a second – why did I upgrade these forums again LOL :joy:

I can’t quite recall - was this a User’s Group analysis? I just looked it up but couldn’t find it.

It would be really difficult for me to see this film any other way as a tragedy. There are a couple things to consider:

  • Story Judgment is meant to be applied to the narrative as a whole. True, it does tend to veer more towards the Main Character (because of the subjective nature of it all) - but you’d want to look at the entire experience as a whole - was it an overall transcendent experience? Or was there more of a felling of laying inert…?
  • With a Steadfast/Female Mental Sex story, you can drop out any appreciation of a Story Outcome–it has no effect on the final Storyform (a Steadfast/Female/Success/Good story will play out like a Steadfast/Female/Failure/Good story). You can think of this in terms of simply going in a direction, where “success” or “failure” is really not worth appreciating
  • the Story Dividends (Excitement/Joy) are going to be Subconscious, so it could be that what you’re appreciating is that.

I agree the Subtxt “premise” needs work (they all do). But I think the idea was that the narrative shows through example that an overt focus on possession and jealousy can distort love to the point where all is lost - to the point where one could come to the conclusion that “the greatest thing is to love and be loved in return”.

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You’ve given me a lot to think about. I do like the idea of how a tragedy could be a counter-example about love like that, but I’m not sure I can see it here.

The way I took it, Christian’s jealousy was never really a bad thing – it’s what led to their falling in love and getting the play approved, and the time he was most jealous/worried, it actually turned out to be justified – that was when Duke tried to rape Satine. (Obviously the Duke’s possession and jealousy did cause problems.)

And keep in mind, Satine was going to die regardless of what happened. In the end she died of her disease (consumption/TB) but she died with a smile on her face because she had fulfilled at least part of her dream to be a great actress, and she had experienced love. “Tell our story,” she makes him promise, in a hopeful tone. And by the end Christian does, and at that point he’s totally exuding that “better to have loved and lost” vibe.

To me, no part of the story’s argument/message is suggesting Satine & Christian should have acted differently. Satine was dying and that sucked, but they did the best they could with what they had.

I do agree the other characters looked pretty sad while Satine was breathing her final breaths. But I feel like if any other characters showed up at the very end, it would have to be with a hopeful attitude.

One question I have is whether you interpret the above moments (Satine’s death and the very end) differently, or if you agree about them being hopeful but feel like it’s still a tragedy regardless. However, I totally understand it might be hard to ask that if you haven’t seen the film recently! :slight_smile: So for now we might have to just agree to disagree.

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Tell my story seems to be a way of saying through you I can live forever. Because she said that, that way I will be an inspiration for struggling [audience reception which singers, actors, women] and live with you forever though parting now. imho.

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Hey @mlucas – great points as always. Let me see if I can unpack how Outcome (Success/Failure) and Judgment (Good/Bad) work in Dramatica, and why Moulin Rouge! still firmly lands in the Failure/Bad (Tragedy/Inert) quadrant—even though it leaves us with that bittersweet “better-to-have-loved-and-lost” refrain.

1. Good vs. Bad isn’t about moral judgment or prescriptions

Dramatica’s Story Judgment isn’t an evaluation of whether characters should have acted differently. Instead, it’s the author’s subjective appraisal of whether the Main Character’s personal angst is fulfilled (Good) or left unresolved and festering (Bad):

“Success and Failure are objective measurements… Good and Bad are subjective value judgments based on the Main Character’s personal fulfillment.”

In other words, characters can absolutely do the best they can, morally or otherwise, yet the result can still be narratively “Bad” if their inner turmoil remains unresolved, or if there is something left unsaid, lingering inequity.

2. The narrative argument demonstrates, rather than instructs

When crafting a narrative argument, the author isn’t explicitly prescribing what characters should do. Rather, the storyform demonstrates an inequity and its consequences through dramatic action:

“If you approach this particular problem in this particular way, here’s what inevitably follows.”

The audience is left to draw their own “should/shouldn’t” from that experience afterward. It’s evidence first, advice second—particularly essential in Female Mental Sex stories like Moulin Rouge! which prioritize holistic, experiential understanding over linear conclusions.

The storyform captures what IS, not what SHOULD.

3. Outcome: Clearly a Failure

Looking at the objective story goal: it’s explicitly about saving the Moulin Rouge and securing Satine’s future. Ultimately, the Duke takes control, Satine dies, and the theatre closes permanently. No matter how passionately they try, the effort collapses completely—Failure. Even though this is felt experientially rather than logically (given the holistic nature of the narrative), the collapse is unmistakably there.

4. Why it ultimately feels Bad, not Good

We view the subjective judgment of this narrative through Christian’s experience. Early on, he’s clearly tormented—writing alone in grief, reflecting personal anguish still gnawing at him (his Main Character Problem of Possession/Jealousy). Yes, there’s a brief final smile, a momentary dividend (Joy/Excitement), but it masks rather than resolves his deeper personal inequity. The final frame, with Christian alone, the dream gone, and love irrevocably lost, leaves the inequity unresolved—thus, Judgment = Bad.

In addition, the bookend song “Nature Boy” (“There was a boy…”) reaffirms the direction of inertia—we’ve been through this entire experience yet we’re hearing the same exact song, in the same key, and with the same vibe. The experience has left us inert, which is what it feels like in a Female Mental Sex/Steadfast/Bad narrative.

The brief return of color is poignant, but ultimately, the story leaves Christian—and us—lying still, inert in loss.

6. Seeing the narrative as a simultaneous whole, not just an “if-then” conclusion

A Dramatica storyform is experienced as a holistic entity, especially in Female Mental Sex stories. It’s not merely a series of logical, linear conclusions (if X, then Y). Instead, it captures the entire experience all at once, including the feelings, tensions, contradictions, and subtleties of human emotion. Moulin Rouge! specifically excels at conveying the inert, bittersweet quality of having deeply loved and profoundly lost, embodying its structural assessment of Female/Steadfast/Failure/Bad through experiential resonance rather than rational judgment.

So even with the hopeful note of “better-to-have-loved-and-lost,” the storyform still resolves structurally as Failure/Bad. The momentary joy is not enough to overturn the deeper unresolved anguish that feels us feeling inert and directionless—highlighting the beauty and pain of the experience itself.

Hope that clarifies things—happy to continue discussing!

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Awesome! That was a wonderful summary. I really like the explanation of “demonstrates, rather than instructs” – I was aware that this is how storyforms & narratives work, but it a fantastic reminder to see it laid out like this.

My comments on should vs. shouldn’t were more addressing the phrasing of the narrative argument – but I probably read too much into that since you said it needs some work anyway. Plus, re-reading the narrative argument, it doesn’t explicitly say that you shouldn’t be jealous, it’s just hard not to interpret it that way.

I think you mostly convinced me. I mean, the story still leaves me with a message of “wow, love is really worth it even when it’s doomed*, and telling the story after can transform the pain into gladness”. But that might be a combination of a) the Dividends, especially their expression in the final scene, b) putting some of myself into it, and c) purposely slanting my view to see a Good Judgment because I want to like the film, and I almost never like Bad.

Oh! And d) putting a lot of weight on the “Relationship Story outcome”, which even though they end “apart”, they end on love rather than jealousy, angst or hate. (Though this isn’t a story point in the current model, I know we’ve talked before on how the RS ending can really impact the feel of a story’s ending. Case in point: La La Land, whose ending feels both triumphant yet somehow even sadder than Moulin Rouge.)

* it was the fact that you could interpret Romeo & Juliet the same way – “love is really worth it even when it’s doomed” that made me realize point d) above.

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I like the descriptive word “masks”. It does put it together. I was looking at the mask … haha.