NCP: Story Drivers for Nightmare Before Christmas

[jhull]

We’re starting a new project, to show off a use case for NCP (Narrative Context Protocol), and as part of the example we want to use The Nightmare Before Christmas.

The film has always been a great example of an insufficient (practically missing) Relationship Story Throughline, so its a fun one to use–not because we think there’s something particularly wrong with it–just that its super obvious that the RS is not there (Why are they suddenly in love at the end??).

Getting the Storyform set up in Narrato, I was wondering about the Story Drivers - Hank (who will hopefully introduce himself here soon!), set it as Decision which I instinctively thought worked…but I’m not 100% sure - so wanted to check in with any Dramatica experts (if they’re around!).

Our resident AI expert had this to say:

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Below is one plausible set of the five canonical Story Drivers for The Nightmare Before Christmas, followed by an explanation of why this story appears to be Decision-driven (each key choice sends the plot careening into the next wave of actions).

#	Story Driver (DECISION)	Why it turns the plot	Location in synopsis
1	Jack decides that Halloween Town will “take over” Christmas.	This commitment establishes the new objective: remake Christmas in Halloween Town’s image. Everything that follows—the toy-building, the kidnapping plan, the sleigh—is a direct outgrowth of this choice.	“He announces that Halloween Town will take over Christmas this year and assigns Christmas-themed jobs…”
2	Jack decides to have Santa kidnapped (and explicitly forbids involving Oogie).	By ordering Lock, Shock & Barrel to abduct “Sandy Claws,” Jack escalates the stakes and invites complications; their disobedience (delivering Santa to Oogie) spins the story onto a darker track.	“He tasks…Lock, Shock and Barrel with abducting Santa; however, he orders them not to involve…Oogie…”
3	Jack decides to deliver the presents himself.	This midpoint choice launches the disastrous Christmas-Eve flight, moving the conflict out of Halloween Town and into the real world.	“As Jack departs to deliver presents in the real world…”
4	Jack decides to correct his mistake and rescue Santa (after realizing the havoc he caused).	His change of heart shifts the story from spreading chaos to restoring order, propelling him back to Halloween Town for the showdown with Oogie.	“Bemoaning the trouble that he has caused, Jack…returns home…[and] rescues Santa and Sally, confronts Oogie…”
5	Santa decides to forgive Jack and set Christmas right.	This final decision resolves the objective conflict: Santa replaces the horrific gifts, brings snow to Halloween Town, and restores the holiday balance—signaling the story’s closure.	“Santa…makes amends with Jack and resumes his yearly duties, replacing Jack’s presents with genuine ones.”

Why the story is Decision-driven

Across all five turning points, a choice—not a physical incident—kicks off the next sequence of events. Actions (toy-making, sleigh-building, air-defenses firing, Oogie’s gambling antics) are reactions to earlier decisions. Because each plot escalation originates in a conscious commitment, the narrative fits Dramatica’s Decision Driver pattern.

Meaning emerges from the relationships among these drivers, not from any single event. If you’d like to test alternate interpretations—or dive into the precise Story Limit, Outcome, or Throughline Domains—just let me know!

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Which sounds…OK…the only big difference in the Storyform are the Signposts.

This is a Decision-driven narrative:

and then, this is the same narrative, but Action-driven:

Of course, the RS is a complete flip-flop so that’s why I wanted to get feedback on the other ones that are actually in there.

Any thoughts about the MC or OS Throughlines?

[Hankg]

Hello !!

This film is super close to my heart–it’s my favorite movie from childhood. I know all the songs by heart and know almost everything there is to know about its production. I can even tell you when a couple spots of dust ended up in the final image and when some objects got accidentally nudged : )

When I did this Storyform, I actually didn’t focus too much on whether it was Decision or Action, so this is great. Thinking about it, I think I would stick with Decision. Here are a few pieces of evidence:

1. While it’s true that Jack unintentionally wanders into the forest that contains all the holiday doors, it’s his decision to open the Christmas door, which is heavily dramatized, which drives him into Christmas Town.

2. Sally makes a lot of decision to try to get closer to Jack (poisoning Dr. Finkelstein, jumping out of the window when she is in captivity, etc.)

3. When Jack returns, he decides to hold a town meeting to explain Christmas to everyone.

4. After experimenting, Jack exclaims “Eureka! This year, Christmas will be OURS !” to the residents of Halloween town.

5. Sally decides to use the fog juice to cloud Halloween Town just before Jack leaves for Christmas, which causes the whole situation with Zero simulating Rudolph.

6. At the close of “Poor Jack,” Jack decides to return to his role as the Pumpkin King, and moreover to save Christmas

7. Jack intentionally pulls Oogie Boogie’s thread, unravelling him.

8. In the final song, Jack sings “My dearest friend if you don’t mind, I’d like to join you by your side.”

To me, those all ring Decision ! I spent this afternoon playing around with the Relationship Story and Influence Character story, trying to find ways to subtly augment them throughout the existing story. Of course, the goal here isn’t to say that the storytelling in Nightmare is insufficient or bad, but rather to explore the way that the Storyform can potentially offer us inspiration for new moments that pull at the existing thematic content. I’ll make a second post in just a bit that elaborates some of those ideas, I think they’re pretty fun. The real purpose of this exercise is to show that with NCP, we can track the changes between the original story and any changes made to it by subsequent authors (or the same author at a later time). More soon !

[mlucas]

Welcome @Hankg ! This forum used to be a lot livelier, hopefully it will get back to that as new folks like yourself bring interesting discussions like this one.

I love that you were able to find the storyform for one of your favorite childhood movies – I know that feeling myself, it’s priceless. Sorry I don’t have more to add as I never saw this film, but I’m eager to hear how the “augmenting” goes.

[jhull]

Dang it! You were one of the people I was hoping was going to help!

[Hankg]

Hi @mlucas ! Yes hopefully we can get some new discussions going !

Here’s two of the ideas that I had to “bolster” the plot based on the storyform, based on my conversation with Narrato:

1. The first one addresses the IC Benchmark, which is Memory. There’s a pivotal scene in which she is plucking a flower “he loves me, he loves me note” style. Suddenly the flower transforms into a Christmas tree, and then bursts into flames. This premonition is what steels her sense that Jack’s Christmas will be a disaster, and causes her to try to sabotage it. Rather than picking the flower at that moment, I thought it would be nice to reinforce the Memory Benchmark by having her pick the flower earlier in the film: perhaps in a much earlier scene in which she also picks nightshade to poison Dr. Finklelstein. In the film she listens to Jack’s lament and then notes “Jack, I know how you feel…”. Perhaps at his moment she could be picking the flower, and placing it within the pages of a book. In this way the flower would represent her memory of that moment in which she felt she resonated strongly with Jack’s plight. This would make its return much later in the premonition scene resonate much more strongly, with pretty minimal changes !
2. In the final confrontation with Oogie, there is a strong movement from Avoid to Pursue on Sally’s part: she distracts Oogie by detaching her leg, and posing it…provocatively…to distract Oogie into pursuing her. Unfortunately this scene isn’t within the context of the RS, as Jack hasn’t yet arrived at Oogie’s lair–instead, it leads to Sally’s capture, and Jack saves her later. We could subtly rework this scene so that this deception enables Jack to sneak in. In the film, Jack sneaks in when Oogie is distracted by rolling “snake eyes,” and smashing his fist down to re-roll the dice (which is great in its own way, it emphasizes how Oogie doesn’t play by the rules). As the confrontation progresses, we might further press on Pursue by having Sally somehow recognize Oogie’s initial unravelling. While talking with Narrato I realized that her unique physical situation–being a rag doll composed of sew-together parts–mirrors Oogie Boogie’s burlap sack construction pretty strongly. I had never considered that ! In the film, it’s Jack who notices that the first thread of Oogie’s suit has come undone, and he alone who pulls it, unraveling and exposing Oogie as a collection of bugs. Sally does help Jack–she yells for him to watch out as a saw slices the platforms he is standing on–so if we could just reframe her aid in this new context, I think we’d have a much stronger sense of the relationship developing.

So those are just two ideas I had so far. They’re both pretty minor changes, but I think they do some work to strengthen the story ! There’s much more to be done as far as giving Sally a more fleshed out Throughline, as well as with the RS. But I’ll leave it here for now.

(As an aside, there’s a pivotal scene, Sally’s only song, which occurs at the beginning of Signpost 4, that seems to sum up her whole Throughline to that point: “I sense there’s something in the wind…And though I’d like to stand by him. Can’t shake this feeling that I have, etc.” (Subconscious) “What will become of my dear friend?” (Considerations) “Although I’d like to join the crowd, in their enthusiastic cloud. Try as I may, it doesn’t last” (Recollections). I might even argue that the last line of the song gestures toward her 4th Signpost (if we are going with the Decision driver ) “And will we ever end up together ? No, I think not, it’s never to become, for I am not the one.” (Preconscious, it’s her ingrained response that Jack would never be with someone like her).

[jhull]

This is so cool - thank you!!!

OK, let’s get into it…

The Influence Character Beat sounds pretty good, and i like the idea of putting it into the book earlier, as a memory of that moment - for the IC we would want to find some way too to have it “impact” or influence Jack’s growth…

But it’s the RS I’m really interested here at first - before we get too far, do you want to do the thing where we establish the relationship, what its growing from and too - and then maybe run through the Domain, Concern, and Issue? It will really help establish the ideas you have at the end (and I totally never made that connection between her and Oogie!).

[Hankg]

Just getting quick thought down before a more detailed reply addressing what you just brought up–I had forgotten that Narrato and I arrived at a second way in which she receives the flower. It would be that Jack throws it during his parade in the first song, and she catches it, or recovers it from the ground amist the ongoing parade. That works better perhaps, as what she’s doing throughout the story is reminding Jack of who he truly is (The Pumpkin King).

Okay back with more in a bit.

[pattyloof]

@jhull

This is a Decision-driven narrative:

I agree with the driver being Decision. It’s been a while since I saw this movie, but I have a few thoughts on the RS:

Sally clearly has a crush on Jack at the beginning (Basic Drives and Desires) - she watches him, she does the whole thing with the flower, she sings about whether they’ll be together. But it’s been passive, up until the moment the flower turns into the flaming tree.

At that point, she becomes more assertive (Transforming One’s Nature), trying to warn Jack that his plans (Considerations) are dangerous. When he brushes her off and asks her to make his Santa costume, instead of refusing, she goes along with it and does, despite her misgivings (Temporarily Adopting a Lifestyle).

When it looks as if Jack’s scheme is actually going to work, though, she comes up with the idea to use the fog juice (which she has in her cabinet, so Recollections) to stop him from going. She also gets the idea to use her leg (we’ve seen her sew her body parts on before) to tempt Oogie Boogie away so Santa can escape.

When Sally returns to the graveyard, she still believes Jack doesn’t love her, and then all of a sudden, he does! Her Immediate Responses are to take him up on his surprising (to her) offer. Jack’s change of heart comes from evaluating What Has Already Happened and Appreciating the Meaning of her actions.

But when they sing together, they do Conceptualize what their life together might be like, so I don’t feel the RS is entirely weak. It gets the “awww,” even though this was never set up as a sweet romance.

I think where the RS falls short is that we aren’t really seeing enough of the RS on Jack’s part towards Sally. Although he’s also Transforming, Adopting a Lifestyle, and Coming Up With Ideas, it’s more subtle and indirect as far as Sally’s concerned.

I feel like we needed more with the two of them together (or maybe some more in the dialogue) to really make the RS solid.

[jhull]

Definitely. And I can totally see all the effort on her part for a relationship…but with the RS it should really be about the relationship itself - not the individuals within. So maybe we should go to defining what that is:

It can help to define the state of the relationship at the beginning and at the end and then use that to track their emotional growth.

• friends to romantic partners?

Then, the Issue of Commitment is that the relationship itself is not really committed. You can imagine all kinds of scenes where in one they’re friends, then they get closer to romance, then back to strictly platonic, then work colleagues, then partners-in-crime, then romance, then love …

You identified one of the core issues - that its a relationship as seen through one person (he said/she said - though this time, strangely enough, it’s she said!).

Now, we need to identify what it is and then work through Domain, Concern, etc.

[Hankg]

Okay—worked on this some more. A crucial insight for the RS came via a look through a book I had lying around, “Tim Burton’s Nightmare Before Christmas: The Film - The Art - The Vision,” in which it is stated that they didn’t want Sally to just become Jack’s romantic partner at the end, but rather a kindred spirit (funnily enough, they explicitly mention that while Jack provides the plot, Sally provides the film its heart—not quite how Dramatica would frame the Throughlines, but on the right track !). I think this spells out the intended arc of the RS pretty clearly: from onlooker (Sally) / idol (Jack) to kindred spirits. With that in mind, I headed back to the platform to put these ideas in practice and formulate some extensions to the storytelling that make this clearer. Here’s where I’m at so far:

Signpost 1, Becoming, represents Sally being picked out from the crowd of adoring residents of Halloween Town as someone who understands a portion of Jack that nobody else can see (this is expressed in the film, after she listens to his Lament: “Jack, I know how you feel…). One way to boost this connection is to introduce a moment in which Sally recovers a left-behind flower thrown in celebration during the opening song, “This is Halloween,” saving it for the later premonition scene. The symbolism is pretty clear: the flower, thrown in celebration of Jack, is left to be swept away—Sally is the only one who sees that there is a second side to the story. This adeed beat also registers Avoid, the RS Problem, as she isn’t directly connecting with Jack over this newfound element of their shared plight, rather she’s socketing a memento of it.

Signpost 2, Being, is framed through their occupation of “public” roles: Jack as the director of the new Holiday directive, and Sally as the capable seamstress who is uniquely capable of creating Jack’s Santa outfit. I think this is explored well in the film, so I’m not adding anything.

Signpost 3, Conceiving, is where we have to start making some changes and cashing in on the recovered flower, seeded earlier, as well as get Jack thinking about Sally more. Each has to develop the conception that their relationship might be something more important: for Jack this is a realization, and for Sally it is a continuation of her feelings driving the RS from Avoid to Pursue. These scenes have to progress in parallel—both because they highlight and initially emphasize Avoid, but also because I think the smash cut from Sally’s longing in “Sally’s Song” to Jack maniacally delivering presents is a key moment of juxtaposition in the RS that works fantastically. Here, rather than Sally’s premonition scene unfolding with the “he loves me, he loves me not” flower, it instead occurs when she revisits the flower (Memory Benchmark for the RS). In parallel, Jack has a realization: it’s Sally who has been attempting to protect him, and she alone who understands his true feelings.

I always found it a bit odd how in “Poor Jack,” Jack suddenly seems to re-adopt his persona as the Pumpkin King out of nowhere. In this scene he’s been shot down by the military, his whole plan is in shambles, and he is Hopeless (Hope is the IC Unique Ability…). The justification for him to change comes in the line “What the heck, I went and did my best, and by god I really tasted something swell….etc…and at least I left some stories they can tell, I did.” Since when did Jack ever care about his legacy among the residents of Halloween Town ? It would be better if the justification for his change came from the RS, I think ! A beat earlier in the song he says “and nobody really understood…well how could they…” Perhaps just after this line, Zero recovers something from the wreckage: Jack’s famous bat bowtie, neatly packaged for him by Sally in a similar fashion to her earlier gift (the bottle that releases a ghostly butterfly). The wrapping is singed, but the bow tie is perfectly intact. He would realize at that moment that Sally never abandoned Hope (IC Unique Ability) that Jack would return to himself, releasing the temptation of seizing Christmas recklessly and instead cleaning up his mess (MC Problem to Solution, Temptation to Conscience). He rips off the Santa outfit, just as it is on-screen already, but now intentionally affixes the bow tie—a clear return to form thanks to Sally’s persistence of Hope.

Signpost 4, Becoming, is now much more supported: the pair have, through parallel motion, come to the mutual understanding that they understand each other in a unique way. I haven’t yet thought of an addition to the storytelling here that seals the deal, but it doesn’t feel far off with a bit more thought.

[Hankg]

Ooo—sorry @pattyloof, I didn’t see you had commented on this before I replied ! I agree with everything you said, especially the RS being underdeveloped primarily from Jack’s side. I would definitely like to think up some more scenes where they two are in dialogue, that would be a fun.

[jhull]

Wonderful!! And really cool ideas…

When it comes to the RS, we really want to avoid the “he said/she said” encoding, as much as you possibly can. It’s ok if you have a good handle on the growth of the relationship, but if its still kind of nebulous it can help to just think of the relationship itself as a “character”

You already have a great growth from idol/fan to kindred spirits - though I do wonder if its possible to work in a bit more of that romance or “change” in their relationship a bit more in the last Signpost (“romantic” kindred-spirits?)

so then to track the RS it might be something like:

• Becoming - the idol/fan relationship finds their bond broken and transformed into something its never been before (adoration used to be there, but now is disjointed by … something…)
• Being - separated into a space they’re uncomfortable with, the two go on pretending as if nothing has changed (i think you’re right, in that this is here in the final version) .. which draws them further and further away
• Conceiving - apart, the relationship can’t conceive of continuing on like this…
• Conceptualizing - they come back together, re-vitalizing their relationship and reimagining it where both take the reins at separate times - one leading, the other following, and vice-versa

Throwing that into Narrova, we get:

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Below is a “director’s-cut” overlay that threads the stronger Relationship Story (RS) into the existing movie structure of The Nightmare Before Christmas. Each paragraph lands within the identical act breaks of the original film, so you can imagine the added beats sliding between—or subtly reshaping—scenes that already exist.

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Signpost 1 – Becoming (Act I: From the town-square song through Jack’s discovery of Christmas Town)

Halloween is over, the crowd still chants Jack’s name, and Sally watches with glowing adoration…until she overhears Jack’s private lament in the cemetery. The dissonance between legendary Pumpkin King and the lonely soul on the spiral hill snaps her hero-worship; she realizes she’s relating to a person, not an icon. When Jack bursts back from Christmas Town raving about twinkling lights and “something called presents,” their bond becomes unstable—Sally thrills at his wonder yet fears his recklessness, and Jack, sensing her shift from pure fan to discerning equal, feels oddly exposed. Adoration is transforming, but into what neither can name.

Signpost 2 – Being (Act II: The “Making Christmas” montage and town preparations)

With everyone busy repurposing coffins into gift boxes, Jack dons the mantle of visionary leader while Sally resumes sewing in the shadows—both defaulting to roles they know. Each time she warns him (foggy reindeer, “something’s missing”), they slip into polite scripts: he thanks his “most trusted friend,” she curtseys. They are being their old selves even as the friendship costume pinches: Jack masks uncertainty with grand pronouncements; Sally hides longing behind obedience. The harder they perform normalcy, the wider the emotional gulf yawns—Avoid in action.

Signpost 3 – Conceiving (Late Act II into Act III: Jack’s Christmas Eve flight, shooting-down, and Oogie’s lair)

After Jack is blasted from the sky and presumed dead, the two are physically separated—Sally bound by Oogie, Jack lost in the angel graveyard—and the relationship stalls in limbo. Alone, each conceives an unspoken future: Sally pictures Jack relinquishing titles so they can dream side-by-side; Jack imagines returning not to applause but to one companion who truly sees him. Yet both deem these visions impossible: how can hero and admirer rewrite an entire town’s narrative? The inability to picture a workable “us” keeps them paralyzed even as external stakes soar.

Signpost 4 – Conceptualizing (Act IV: Rescue, Oogie’s defeat, and the snowy hill finale)

The jailbreak duet against Oogie forces rapid teamwork—Sally distracts the boogeyman while Jack unravels seams, then they swap tactics without speaking. In the adrenaline rush they conceptualize a new partnership: leadership that passes fluidly, admiration that flows both directions. When Santa restores Christmas and scolds Jack, Sally steps forward—not as sycophant but as equal—sharing blame and lending calm. Later, atop the spiral hill dusted in real snow, they sketch the blueprint aloud: “Next Halloween…we design it together.” The town will still celebrate its Pumpkin King, but privately Jack and Sally acknowledge a kindred, co-creative “we,” turning Pursuit into a living, breathing relationship.

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These inserts keep every original plot beat intact while giving the RS its own spine:
• Becoming cracks the idol/fan mold.
• Being shows the painful masquerade.
• Conceiving isolates them in doubtful daydreams.
• Conceptualizing lets collaboration and mutual pursuit triumph.

Use them as touch-points for new scenes or for subtle dialogue tweaks that let viewers feel the romance blossom without altering the film’s external storyline.

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[Hankg]

Yes totally ! I think a small change to that last Signpost could really send it. There is that montage at the end, where we get a couple of small scenes showing the residents of Halloween town experimenting with the snow that Santa brings. Perhaps Jack/Sally could have a small extra moment there, leading into their final duet, that gets at the changed relationship. Something playful (bc the whole scene is about that child-like wonder of encountering snow) that briefly recapitulates Jack being tempted, but Sally gentle course-corrects him and they then proceed together in a way that neither could have alone. I’ll think on it…

[Hankg]

Here’s an idea I came up, along with the platform’s help. I think it’s cute ! It echoes the earlier scene where Jack can’t quite figure out that he’s missing the Santa hat as part of his costume–in that scene, it’s what causes him to be unable to listen to Sally. But here, Sally steps in and provides a solution (which is Halloween-y and Christmas-y). Jack would then get distracted by Dr. Finkelsten and his “wife,” (already present in the film) which lets Sally slip off for a moment, and then the ending unfolds as is. Not to get too psychoanalytic but having them “parent” these two kids, and then showing Dr. Finkelstein with his “wife,” subtly raises the question of their Jack and Sally’s own romance, which I think could be enough.

Final Micro-Beat for RS Signpost 4

(fits inside the existing snow-montage; uses the two children already shown rolling a snowball)

1. Set-up (shot already present)

• Two Halloween-Town kids tumble inside a huge double-ball of snow, giggling.

2. Jack’s moment of puzzlement

• Jack steps over, intrigued by the stacked “snow-body,” but senses something’s missing. He taps his chin—Temptation to improve strikes, yet he pauses.

3. Sally supplies the missing piece

• Sally arrives holding a carved jack-o-lantern head she’s just shaped from a leftover Halloween pumpkin dusted with snow.
• She offers it; Jack lifts it and crowns the kid-filled snowman. The grinning pumpkin lights from within (kids’ candle).

4. Shared recognition & communal echo

• Jack and Sally exchange a quick, delighted look: the creation is equal parts Christmas (snowman) and Halloween (pumpkin head).
• Nearby townsfolk cheer and start topping their own snow figures with spooky gourds—instant adoption of the joint concept.

5. Transition to Pursuit

• Sally turns toward Spiral Hill; Jack, still smiling at their co-creation, now pursues her up the path, leading straight into their duet.

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Structural Effect

RS Storypoint	How this beat satisfies it
Signpost 4 – Conceptualizing	Jack & Sally co-invent a concept (pumpkin-snowman) that fuses both holidays and is immediately copied—textbook Benchmark of shared planning.
Problem → Solution	Earlier, missing Santa-hat symbolized their disconnect; here the missing head is completed together—Avoid gives way to Pursuit.
Catalyst & Issue	Sally’s responsible eye spots what Jack’s creation lacks; Jack’s commitment aligns and finishes the job.
Outcome for RS	One playful beat proves they’re now kindred spirits, able to complete each other’s visions in real time—perfect set-up for the hilltop acknowledgment.

This single, visually driven addition locks Signpost 4 into place, lifts the RS structure, and echoes existing footage without altering dialogue or pacing.

[pattyloof]

@jhull

“Next Halloween…we design it together.”

I particularly like this part.

[jhull]

Right? That has that “Relationship Story Throughline” feel to it…