Newbie looking for a place to start

questions
#1

A systematic logical structure based on first principles…you would think Dramatica is exactly the type of thing I would eat up. Instead I find myself chewing on it, growing frustrated, walking away only to come back later and chew on it some more. I haven’t had a whole lot of luck actually using it to create anything.

With my latest story, I’m not even entirely sure who the antagonist and IC character is. Pretty basic right? Here’s my logline:

To save his first love, a shy Japanese teenage boy must prove to a Shinigami (death god) that love exists by making it fall in love with him.

If the story is about Michi (the main character) saving his first girlfriend (Kioko) then the shinigami (Tamashii) would be the antagonist and Kioko would be the IC.

But if the story is about Michi making Tamashii fall in love with him, then Tamashii should be the IC and Kioko would be the antagonist.

I’m rather leaning to the latter interpretation, but then what is the OS? Michi and Tamashii are the only ones who know about the threat to Kioko. How are the other characters involved? In trying to pick the various areas of concern, I became totally lost.

Hmmm… I’ve been thinking while I’ve been typing.

Perhaps the MC’s area of concern is the Situation (Save Kioko, make Tamashii love him while not screwing up his relationship with Kioko)
.
Tamashii’s area of concern is her State of Mind (Doesn’t believe love exists and so thinks Kioko needs to be taken down to Yomi.) Also, recovering her lost memories is a key to resolving her situation.

I don’t know about the OS though, since their friends aren’t even privy to what’s going on. They mostly end up dividing into team Kioko and team Tamashii,

The MC/IC throughline area of concern could be A Manner of Thinking? Since Michi and Tamashii are each trying to change the other’s opinions?

If so, that would leave the OS in the area of Activity. But doing what?

I have a pretty good idea of how I want the story to progress, but I have no idea of what storyform to use. It gets even worse when I descend into types.

It’s usually about here where I get frustrated and walk away?

Any suggestions?

#2

All right, let’s see what I can iron out.

First, I think you may be a tad confused about what the Overall Story is. It doesn’t really matter who is or isn’t mixed up in the plot. What you have to do is step back from the story and look for a Goal, a Protagonist pursuing it, and an Antagonist preventing it. One of the recommendations I’ve seen is to not use any names. So if we step back, what do we see? The Lover is trying to bring back his Girlfriend by teaching the Shinigami love. What is the Goal? Saving the Girlfriend, right? The Lover is pursuing it, making him the Protagonist. The Shinigami is trying to prevent it, making her the Antagonist.

The other characters can all assist one side or another, even if they don’t know what’s actually going on. So if one friend sees that the Lover is upset and tries to cheer him up by being goofy, that might be the Emotion character. If another character keeps sneaking around trying to figure out what’s the Lover’s deal, and in doing so keeps getting in the way, they might be the Contagonist. Again, neither of those characters are aware of the Shinigami or the deal. (What about the Girlfriend? Well, she might be the Sidekick, perhaps, or the Reason. Could be anything; it all depends on how you write it.)

As to why the OS Domain is Activity, I think it’s because the Lover is trying to do something to save his Girlfriend. That path of action is what makes it Activity.

Oh, one more thing. This means Tamashii is both the Antagonist and the Impact Character. This isn’t necessarily a big deal; @jhull calls it “small,” but plenty of stories do it without a problem.

Anyways, the rest of your analysis was pretty solid, so I thought we could delve a little deeper. Here’s my thought for Types: Obtaining, Future, Innermost Desires, and Changing One’s True Nature. In the OS, the Lover wants to Obtain the right to the Girlfriend’s soul. In the MC, Michii is most concerned about his Future with Kioko. In the IC, Tamashii’s Desires screw everything up: her hunger for death, her lack of desire for love, and so on. And as you said, the Relationship between Michii and Tamashii focuses on Changing One’s True Nature: Michii is trying to make Tamashii accept love, while Tamashii is twisting Michii away from Kioko. (It’s not changing their opinions, though. It’s changing their deepest state of self.)

Going even deeper gets tougher. I can theorize what you might choose, but I’ll leave that to you.

Truth is, you have a lot of it pretty well down. The whole Overall Story thing trips a lot of people up. Just recognize that characters can influence the path the Overall Story takes, even if they’re not actually aware of it going on.

#3

Thank you very much for your reply. It helps…I think. Perhaps the most tantalizing thing about Dramatica is that just when I feel I’m beginning to understand it, I learn something knew that throws everything I thought I knew into doubt. :stuck_out_tongue:

I am probably more than just a tad confused about the OS. :confused: Though I think I understand what you’re saying—that regardless of their personal goals, the other characters are going to represent different approaches to the overall story question. I think one thing that is tripping me up is that I have two significant, interrelated, yet separate story questions. Can the Prog save his girlfriend and can he prove that love exists. He can’t accomplish the first without first accomplishing the second.

In other words, if we accept that Tamashii is both the Antagonist and the Impact character, then before the Protag can defeat the Antag, he must first help the IC (who is also the Antag) accomplish her goals.

No. That’s not right. The IC may need to learn that love exists, but her goal is to justify her beliefs based on her past experience. (In a way I feel like I have two protagonists running two different but related stories at the same time.)

Do you see why I’m a little confused on how to approach this? :slight_smile: Is there a better way to frame the story?

What can you tell me about stories where the Antag is also the IC? What makes them “small” and what special approaches need to be considered?

Since the girlfriend is trying to drive a wedge between Michi and Tamashii, inadvertently undermining the Protag’s efforts, does that make her the Contagonist? (I’m a big lover of irony, so the idea of the girlfriend, in an attempting to save her relationship with her boyfriend, is undermining not only her relationship with him but her very existence, appeals to me.)

I can’t wait to get home and start plugging in your suggested types and see what comes out. I have the beginning and end planned out but I’m really hoping Dramatica can help me structure the middle.

Speaking of the end, if Michi ultimately decides that his relationship with Tamashii is more important to him than his relationship with Kioko, he is still considered a steadfast character since he accomplished his goal of saving Kioko, right? Would this be considered a good or a bad ending?

Anyway, thanks again for letting me pick your brain. I’m sure I will have more questions, but I definitely feel I am closer to that eureka moment where everything comes together. I just need to get a broader–and more experienced–perspective of the process.

#4

First off, the best thing about Dramatica is that it is making you think your story through - the fact that you question who is who and what is the Overall Story and who the Influence Character is - those are questions you will eventually run into even if you didn’t have Dramatica or understood it at all. So know that your frustrations are the frustrations of a writer - not of someone trying to use Dramatica. You just have a very accurate way of pinpointing the issues in your story, so your frustrations will be more in-depth.

In regards to your original logline:

This sounds more like a Manipulation OS story. There really is no indication of what kinds of Activities are going on. The conflict here rests in the attempts to make a God fall in love with a boy. Most likely a Concern in Conceiving, though I could also see Becoming and to a lesser extent Conceptualizing.

You’ve only identified the Protagonist of the piece (the boy).

The God may or may not be the Influence Character though I suspect you would feel better if you invented someone else. Someone who could engage the boy on a different level.

I don’t think I would make the God the Antagonist either. Maybe instead someone who doesn’t believe in love or the power of it, etc.

The point if to focus on the conflict in all things and where it comes from. You’re the writer so there is no right answer, only the answer you go with it. You’ll have some tough choices to make, but you’ll be making those choices eventually – better to get them out of the way sooner than later.

#5

This is, perhaps, the main reason I have so much difficulty with Dramatica theory, namely that there seems to be several different ways one could interpret/translate the basic ideas into the framework. Although I am beginning to see that how you translate it determines which aspect of the conflict you are focusing on. I just don’t know enough to make an intelligent choice within the context of Dramatica itself.

You’re right though. At this point the only thing I know for sure is the protagonist.

Every character has their own issues, but at it’s core I see this primarily as a classic love triangle. 90% of the story is Michi trying to romance Tamashii while maintaining his relationship with Kioko (and he can’t tell her why). Kioko (growing increasingly suspicious) will keep throwing roadblocks between the two to keep Michi to herself while Tamashii will try and convince Michi that love doesn’t exist (by taking him out with her when she goes to collect souls–kind of a reverse A Christmas Carol).

The resolution comes when Michi learns of, and helps Tamashii recover, her past memories as Izanami and her betrayal by Izanagi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izanami-no-Mikoto) Once she realizes she already has feelings for Michi and their classmates, she regrets all the chaos she’s caused, decides to call the whole thing off and leaves. At which point Michi has to decide if he really wants her to go and how far he’s willing to go to be with her.

So…what storyform would that be? :wink:

#6

You left out the most important part (the Resolve) and the Resolution - does Michi manipulate Tamashii into falling in love or not (Success/Failure) - how does Michi feel at the end?

Your Throughlines are:

MC - Situation (in a relationship with someone else)
IC - Mind (doesn’t believe in love)
OS - Manipulation (trying to get the God to fall in love)
RS - Activities (romancing a God)

Protagonist - Michi
Antagonist - Kioko

This is brilliant:

Exactly. so the question is - how does it end?

#7

Ah! OK. I think I’m starting to get a bit of a feel for this, though I’m sure I’m going to have to work through the entire process with the story before I begin to feel comfortable with it. Thank you guys for putting up with questions you’ve probably heard a thousand times before.

Yes, after Michi helps her recover her memories and her lost humanity, Tamashii discovers her affection for her friends and her love for Michi. It is primarily because of this, her regret for the chaos she’s caused in their lives and her certainty that staying will only make things worse that she decides to leave and go back to the spirit world. So yes, the Manipulation is successful.

Realizing that Kioko didn’t love him so much as see him as a necessary set piece in her idea of a perfect life, Michi begs Tamashii to stay. She can’t. She’s technically dead and other shinigami will come after her, treating her as a harmful yokai. Michi begs her to take his soul so he can go with her, but she refuses, so he asks her to come visit him in his room that night before she leaves for good.

That night he ODs on the painkillers left over from the bus accident that initially killed Kioko and all the other passengers but him. (On their first date no less.) She is forced to take him to yomi where they both beg King Yama to let the other return to the land of the living. Yama tells them that anyone can leave yomi whenever they’re are ready to let go of whatever is holding them back to their old lives. Since they have no idea where or who they will be reincarnated to, Yama ties the Red String Of Fate between them and they return to the land of the living.

Epilogue, two young kids with different names and different lives discover each other.

So I’m guessing It’s a good ending? If you can consider suicide and reincarnation a good thing. :confused:

#8

Not a problem. Dramatica usually takes about 18 months of intense study before you start to get it. Everyone has been there, plus we learn by teaching.

As far as your story, sounds awesome. Hard to follow in a forum like this, but I’ll take a guess … yeah - this sounds like Success (convincing Tamashii that love exists) and Good (reincarnated with “soul” mate). In story suicide has no value save for that which you assign to it.

Based on what you’ve presented here, I’m pretty sure your storyform would be:

Steadfast
Start
Do-er
Linear
Action
Optionlock
Success
Good
Manipulation
Conceiving
Permission
Certainty

My rationale for so –

Steadfast - the God’s Resolve regarding love is Changed.
Start - Michi is holding out for the God to start believing in love, or for the world around him to start believing in love
Do-er - OD’s on painkillers when he doesn’t get his way
Linear - you’re male (sorry, just a guess)
Action - bus accident, leaving, deaths at the end
Optionlock - no sense of time passing (not a good barometer, but fine for now)
Success - the God conceives of love
Good - Michi is reincarnated with his soul mate
Manipulation - conflict arises from people trying to convince other people to think like them
Conceiving - as mentioned before the Goal or drive objectively is to get someone who can’t see love to conceive or get the idea that love exists
Permission - can Gods love, are they allowed to love mortals, etc. (lots of juicy stuff in here)
Certainty - based this actually on choosing Proaction for Michi as his Steadfast Drive based on an Issue of Attraction (just guessing that personally he could an unbelievably handsome fellow that can’t seem to get rid of those women attracted to him (his girlfriend). all the more reason he would be upset when this God isn’t attracted to him. A challenge to him.

This had the side-effect of choosing a Symptom of Non-Acceptance and a Response of Acceptance in both the Overall and Main Character Throughlines - this seems to fit quite nicely with what you’re trying to do and what the characters are aware of.

It also gives the God the problem of Certainty - which I’m sure Gods are given to do, to believe in the certainty of their point-of-view. Only at the end, when her Resolve is Changed does she finally she the Potential of love in the universe, and the Potential that exists in reincarnation.

All in all a beautiful story and I can’t wait to read it! Good luck.

1 Like
#9

Wow. That’s pretty impressive when it all comes together. I think you pretty much nailed it. The only change I would make would be to change the story limit to Time Lock since the shinigami gives him a year to prove that love is real before she takes Kioko’s soul, but I think this could be it! I’m looking forward to illustrating and storyweaving parts and spending some time working with it to see how it plays out.

Thank you very much. :slight_smile: And I’m very glad you like the story’s concept. If you really find it interesting, the first 5 chapters are available at http://www.wattpad.com/story/33754415-courting-death-a-romance It’s an early draft but I think it establishes the voice, characters, setting and premise of the story nicely.