Spectacular – saw it a couple weeks ago and couldn’t stop thinking about it for days. Does anyone who’s seen it have thoughts on a storyform (or perhaps more than one)? @jhull ? I’ll wrap my ideas in a spoiler tag to avoid affecting folks, in case anyone wants to consider it on their own first.
storyform thoughts
I initially was thinking there were two storyforms for a few reasons: 1) length, 2) Telemachus feels like an MC for a lot of it, but Odysseus does for more, 3) I could potentially see both Telemachus and Odysseus changing. I guess if there is a Telemachus-as-MC storyform, the OS would be about restoring the throne of Ithaca (i.e. putting a worthy king on it). However, I think the main OS can probably include that in its Concern, so I’m not certain that another storyform is required.
Anyway the main message/argument about Zeus’s law is just SO compelling and so applicable to modern times that I feel that is the one to think about first. For this, I think the usual Christopher Nolan top-right quads feel right, maybe with a Goal of The Past. (Since it feels like the film was saying, something was broken in the world/universe when Troy fell. There are a lot of physics in the journey home though, so you could make an argument for “understanding Zeus’s law” as the goal.)
I think the elements are different from Nolan’s usual focus on Perception/Actuality, I really feel like Thought → Knowledge or Inequity → Equity fit better here. (Thought would be something like, thinking you can outwit the Gods & get away with breaking their laws. While Inequity would be more like, treating people unfairly.)
After more thought, I think OS Past/Interdiction/Inequity and MC Understanding look pretty compelling. With IC role shared between Athena, Penelope and Calypso (steadfast drive of Speculation - driving Odysseus to speculate about what’s happening at home, what happened to his crew, and where he went so wrong as to be cursed by the gods).
I really like Suspicion & Self-Aware → Aware for the RS. Like how the father-son relationship is strained by the father & son only knowing their own side of it, their own feelings but not the others, and comes to resolution when Odysseus tells Telemachus his father is proud of him.
The Equity solution is pretty cool with the overwhelming imbalance of suitors (and their unfair preying on the hospitality of Zeus’s law) being finally put right. Also Odysseus’s challenge is 100% fairness – letting everyone else take a turn on the bow, then fighting them all in a way that could never be proclaimed unfair (because it was so unfair on his side!).
And in the denouement Odysseus accepts the just punishment of exile for striking down the other nobles in his house (which is why it was so important Telemachus not attack any of them).
I have to apologize, even though I studied Homer’s Odyssey in university (classical studies option), and read the whole translation through and LOVED it, it’s been like 30 years. So I’m really not sure how the storyform of this film would compare to Homer’s. It does seem potentially close though!
Oops @jhull I didn’t realize you had posted one on the Platform site. I don’t disagree with your Pursuit → Avoid storyform (all the elements do seem to fit), but I’m not sure it captures the message of the film as I saw it. Perhaps there are two messages – two storyforms – after all?
I wouldn’t be surprised if your suggested Storyform was something along the lines of Nolan unable to help himself but get Aware/Self-aware in there. There is an emphasis on this at the end with the “awareness” of Athena and then subsequent self-awareness (ie. “what have I done” echoes of Oppenheimer type ending).
Did you have a screenshot from the Storyform Builder with your choices in there - to make it easier to read (or can you write out your definite touchpoints so we can bring it up)?
(If you use “Bird’s Eye” view its easier to see where everything lands throughout all the Throughlines)
I really do like Inequity for the OS Problem. Every time they make land they’re completely outmatched by what they face, it’s not even a contest. It works the other way too, like when they poke/burn the Cyclops’ eye you really feel like the story is taking the perspective of how unfair that is, the poor thing is asleep and only has one eye to begin with!
Plus, every time they make landfall they’re looking for supplies, but they’re a big group of seasoned soldiers no regular village / settlement could say no to. In terms of Inequity, Odysseus and his crew are exactly the same as Penelope’s Suitors, who are the same as Agamemnon’s army at the fall of Troy. They’re preying on hospitality and pillaging the seas in order to get home – except that the gods get in their way and punish them for it.
When it comes to the OS Goal of Past and the Issue of Interdiction how were you saying that play out?
For the Pursuit/Avoid Storyform that’s in there now, I was setting it where everyone was focused on a world post-Odysseus; finding a suitor, etc. with his wife weaving indefinitely (OS Issue of Delay, OS Goal of Future)
And then for Pivotal Elements how do you see Equity for the Influence Characters? For Avoid, Calypso is all about it, Telemachus wants to avoid it all.
Like, I can see your Storyform in there, but I wonder if the one at Dramatica.com was the original/first drafts, then while putting it together the whole Self-aware/Aware thing crept back in.
The entire Trojan Horse attack sequence really felt to me like something else, different compared to first two acts which could be explained by this second Storyform.
I guess overall I got the impression that the argument was: I’m going to go pursue all these adventures but in doing so he just creates more conflict. And it’s only when he returns, prevents all the suitors (Avoid) and then heads out West (escapes) that things get restored.
Really great questions! I can totally see the OS Issue of Delay and Goal of Future too. It would be interesting if both storyforms could be there but with different MCs (Telemachus and Odysseus), however I’m not sure if that could work.
For the OS Goal of Past, I was seeing it as “restoring honor and tradition” – proper respect for Zeus’s law like they used to have, not taking advantage of hospitality, at least in Ithaca. This includes putting a ruler on the throne who would uphold that.
Interdiction is about how the gods keep intervening in Odysseus’s journey home. And once it’s clear that he and his crew are cursed to never make it home, Odysseus keeps trying to change that predetermined course. Like when you know the crew are going to eat the god’s sheep but Odysseus tries to intervene anyway. Also the suitor situation in Ithaca is perhaps showing a lack of Interdiction – it needs someone like Odysseus to intervene.
I agree the Equity pivotal element isn’t super clear. But, Circe does level the playing field by using magic against the interloping crew when they arrive and demand food, and you can see Equity in how she makes everyone leave their weapons outside. Calypso tries to restore balance to Odysseus by making him forget, giving him time to heal before he faces what happened to his crew. This is Avoid for sure, but it’s interesting that Calypso did want him to face things when he was ready, and she was happy to help him stop avoiding and get to Ithaca once he woke up and faced everything.
Penelope could also be an IC in this storyform, and in the OS she does try to play all the suitors against each other, so that none of them gain too much power. Kind of maintaining equilibrium. She’s fair to anyone who enters, including beggars – and to Odysseus, whom she treats like any other suitor or beggar. And then she gives everyone the same opportunity with the bow. (That last could be OS solution though!)
I wanted to give examples with Athena but I can’t remember her interactions very well. I guess she probably doesn’t play much part in the OS anyway.
I was thinking about posting some ideas about this, so happy to see the discussion.
I will say that independently, my own thoughts on the storyform were pretty much what @mlucas laid out. This is a Universe that’s out of whack. People write about the Odyssey as an archetypal journey with many adventures, but to me it’s really about being stuck far away from home.
The whole violation of xenia (hospitality - Zeus’s law) and Inequity runs through everything. The unjust killing of the Cyclops (Poseidon’s son) is what keeps Odysseus and his men from home. The suitors have taken up residence in Odysseus’ home for years, abusing his hospitality.
Speaking just of Nolan’s version (there are a lot of differences with the poem), Odysseus’ violation of hospitality by tricking the Trojans literally haunts him, and is the reason he can’t face going home. He is suffering the Consequence of Memory, unable to remember what he has done as he is stuck with Calypso.
Speaking of Memory, I see it everywhere in the relationships – with Calypso, with Athena, with Penelope (he arrives, but do they remember each other?)
Athena’s role as IC is to force him to see (Conceptualize) what he has done. He complains to her about the gods not making their will known to men:
Odysseus: Why can’t gods speak in ways we understand?
Athena: Who doesn’t understand thunder? Fire? A child’s smile? A good harvest?
… which sounds like he us having trouble Understanding and she is trying to get him to Conceptualize.
I also think that she is the force pushing him to return home and restore order (Equity), but I need to find more evidence to support that.
But that’s all from Odysseus’ point-of-view yes? Isn’t that more MC Throughline then what everyone is dealing with in the Objective Story?
I agree it’s super important and meaningful - but from the OS point-of-view I’m not sure the suitors, etc. are all that concerned with the Past as positioned here. I do see Inequity as a possible point of conflict with “beggars” - but aren’t they. more concerned with moving on and what will be, rather than what was?
Wow, that’s awesome that you ended up on the same storyform independently! That’s a great sign, and I loved everything you wrote. I was also thinking that Athena has a big part of the IC role as well, but I think because it was done so well it’s hard to recall those moments of influence – need to see the film again.
As always Jim asks some really good questions though. I keep thinking there could be a Future (or even Obtaining) substory with the suitors in the Antagonist role. However, I’m also aware that’s not a very good answer, because you could suggest a substory anytime something doesn’t fit your ideas!
One consideration, the suitors aren’t really motivated by or concerned with Ithaca’s future. They just want to be the one who ends up marrying Penelope in the future, which is really more self-interest/obtaining. (And other than the front-runners, I think a lot of the suitors are just there for the free food and drink.)
I see your point there. But the storyform doesn’t work if his Concern is Memory
One important piece that I forgot to mention is what happens when they visit the island of the dead. They feel IC-ish, but it feels more like they represent Inequity than Equity.
The whole scene is all about Inequity – the bitterness of Sinon and his betrayal, the story of Agamemnon getting killed by Clytemnestra because “he left a poison in her heart” by killing Iphigenia. Odysseus promises to honor their memories when he returns home. I think honor/dishonor in this context are gists of Equity/Inequity.
Then there’s the exchange with Tiresias about Odysseus’ men, where Odysseus says “I can still save them from the gods” and Tiresias says “but not from themselves,” which sounds a lot like Interdiction/Prediction again.
I think if you look at them as individuals, it seems like the suitors are trying to pursue or obtain something for themselves.
But structurally, it feels to me like their collective roles are as Antagonists “pursuing” the Consequence of Memory – getting Penelope to “move on” from the past and forget her husband.
Everything is in relation to the Past and Memory. He’s been gone for 20 years! Let go already!
That a good point! Another way to phrase it, Jim mentioned moving on and what will be, but I think it’s more accurate to say that they’re trying to move away from what Ithaca was before. It’s all about leaving the past behind and forgetting Odysseus.
Now, there was the argument about Ithaca’s safety when the “sea people” came, which could definitely be seen as a future concern. But this felt more like a convenient argument rather than a true motivation of the suitors.
The Sea People was actually one of Nolan’s additions that didn’t totally work for me. My understanding is that it’s alluding to a contested theory about why Bronze-age Greek civilization collapsed. Also, the part about him leaving and going west with Penelope was an invention that I didn’t love – I think Nolan might have included it so that he could have Telemachus rise to king, but idk. I think it undermines a bit what I think is there, which is the theme of return and restoration of that which was lost.
I actually really liked the exile bit, with Telemachus as king – it underscored the solution for me (Equity if we have the storyform right, but even if not, the need to stay honorable – Odysseus ends up exiled for his crimes in Troy). And it’s cool how Odysseus does accept fair & just punishment = Equity.
The Sea People part was weirdly vague, but I thought it was supposed to be referring to both a) the returning Greeks (Agamemnon’s army) and b) how the world was doomed by the breaking of Zeus’s law, and would fall into an age of dishonorable invaders and conequerors.
Regarding The Odyssey, I think the storyform discussed on here (Discuss Dramatica vs. the one currently on Dramatica.com) is more representative of the film. If you unstoryweave the movie and put the sacking of Troy at the beginning as the real inciting incident, it makes a good case for inequity as the problem – both for Odysseus personally and the OS as well. The breaking of Zeus’s law starts by the Trojan horse treachery and is mirrored by the guests abusing Zues’s guest law back home. I think it’s interesting that in this storyform, the concern is about the past but there is a strong emphasis on the benchmark of the present.
It’s not a slam dunk for sure. And even though I liked that Odysseus was banished at the end, I don’t think that is consistent with the storyform – only some modern day sensibilities.
The trick is the effect storyweaving has on story reception. It’s told from the present – the last steps of Odysseus’ return home with Odysseus with Calypso and his wife and the suitors at his home – but it’s explored in terms of what has happened. This is consistent with the above storyform but blurs the focus on the past to look at what has happened before this point in the story versus the past being the entire backstory of the war up to and including the sacking of Troy.
A forward looking story would have a greater focus on the future, but just getting back home is not as strong a concern of the future than the concerns of past actions. It’s the past actions that seem to dictate virtually every catastrophe that happens moving forward. Even the test for the suitors set up at the end is a repeat of one of Odysseus’ great accomplishments.
