One thing we haven’t discussed is characters in the context of assigning characteristics and how those characteristics fit into the story encoding. As I go through writing these paragraphs for each SignPost, should my scenes be coordinated somehow with those characteristics? Also, how do journeys fit in?
I made a few changes to the story form. Mostly, I realized that Boone’s problem as the IC is not Temptation. His problem is his insistence that using Loki be considered. On the other hand, Luke’s solution is Temptation. As Ferris Bueller once said, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O42K4EwVssQ Luke needs to relax a bit because he is slowly strangling himself. Giving into temptation every once in awhile doesn’t mean that things must go wrong.
Goal / Requirement
For most characters, the central objective of “Novel Structure” has to do with Obtaining. In order to bring about Obtaining these characters must meet requirements revolving around Gathering Information. Only if efforts directed toward Gathering Information are successful will the desired state of Obtaining be realized.
Goal / Consequence
If the goal-oriented characters of “Novel Structure” are unable to bring about the desired state of Obtaining, circumstances pertaining to Changing One’s Nature will be adversely affected.
Cost / Dividend
In their efforts to achieve the goal, characters in “Novel Structure” pay a price that involves focusing on what will happen or be. However, this cost is somewhat balanced by the benefits they receive along the way in regard to being driven.
Requirement / Prerequisites
In order to achieve the goal of “Novel Structure,” a requirement revolving around Gathering Information must be met. To meet this requirement, characters must fulfill certain prerequisites involving Conceiving an Idea.
Prerequisites / Preconditions
To make progress toward the goal, characters in “Novel Structure” must fulfill certain essential prerequisites involving Conceiving an Idea. As they proceed in this effort, people they encounter from time to time insist on special favors in exchange for their help. These favors all take the form of some kind of focusing on the current situation and circumstances. In other words, in exchange for their assistance, people require those seeking the goal to focus on the current situation and circumstances.
Consequence / Forewarnings
If the desired goal of “Novel Structure” is not achieved, the characters will suffer a consequence that adversely affects Changing One’s Nature. There are certain forewarnings that indicate how close the consequence is to actually occurring. In “Novel Structure,” the imminent approach of adverse affects upon Changing One’s Nature is indicated by changes in Contemplation.
Overall Domain / Relationship Domain
In “Novel Structure,” the events that affect people revolve around an activity or endeavor. The relationships between people In “Novel Structure” are most influenced by manners of thinking.
Overall Concern / Overall Benchmark
One thing all the characters in “Novel Structure” share is a concern with Obtaining. The more characters become concerned with Obtaining, the more they look to Gathering Information.
Overall Catalyst / Overall Inhibitor
In “Novel Structure,” the catalyst that moves events forward operates through approaches. While approaches of one sort or another keep forcing things forward, obligations keep slowing them down. In fact, obligations would bring the whole plot to a halt if not for the push supplied by approaches.
Relationship Concern / Relationship Benchmark
Although the specifics may be different, both MAIN CHARACTER (Protagonist) and IMPACT CHARACTER (Emotion) in “Novel Structure” share a common concern with matters involving Changing One’s Nature. The degree of their pre-occupation with Conceiving an Idea gauges progress in resolving their concerns.
Relationship Catalyst / Relationship Inhibitor
In “Novel Structure,” the speed at which the relationship between MAIN CHARACTER (Protagonist) and IMPACT CHARACTER (Emotion) grows is accelerated by rationalization. Whereas rationalization works to hasten the growth of their relationship, attitude keeps putting on the damper.
Overall Thematic Conflict
From a standpoint of Reason, “Novel Structure” explores and analyzes the thematic conflict of morality vs. self interest. Of the two, morality is the thematic focus. This contrasts with the Overall thematic counterpoint of self interest. As these two thematic viewpoints are developed, the disparity between morality and self interests becomes apparent.
Relationship Thematic Conflict
The passionate argument made in “Novel Structure” explores the thematic conflict of responsibility vs. commitment. Of the two, responsibility is the thematic focus. This contrasts with the relationship thematic counterpoint of commitment. As the story develops, all the passionate commitments that come into play revolve around the central issue of responsibility.
Main Character Thematic Conflict
In “Novel Structure,” MAIN CHARACTER (Protagonist) grapples with the conflict of denial vs. closure. Of the two, denial is MAIN CHARACTER (Protagonist)'s thematic focus. This contrasts with its thematic counterpoint of closure. As MAIN CHARACTER (Protagonist) grows through its story experiences, it may come to wonder if it is focused on denial or closure.
Influence Character Thematic Conflict
In “Novel Structure,” IMPACT CHARACTER (Emotion) illustrates the impact of the conflict between preconception vs. openness. Of the two, preconception is IMPACT CHARACTER (Emotion)'s thematic focus. This contrasts with its thematic counterpoint of openness. As they seek to strike a balance between these two extremes, IMPACT CHARACTER (Emotion)'s effect upon others illustrates the relative value of preconception vs. openness.
Overall Problem / Solution
At the heart of all the difficulties experienced by the characters in “Novel Structure” is the central problem of conscience. As the story develops, it becomes clear that these difficulties will only be resolved if conscience is overcome by temptation…
Overall Problem / Symptom
Although conscience is the heart of “Novel Structure”'s problems, most of the attention is focused on characters who disbelieve.
Overall Symptom / Response
In “Novel Structure,” most of the attention is focused on characters who disbelieve. The response to disbelieving in one area leads to believing in another.
Relationship Problem / Solution
In “Novel Structure,” pursuit is the cause of trouble in the relationships between people. Only if avoidance is employed will these troubles be resolved.
Relationship Problem / Symptom
Relationships in “Novel Structure” are troubled by pursuit. As a result, attention becomes focused on the disbeliefs characters go through.
Relationship Symptom / Response
In “Novel Structure,” relationships are focused on the disbeliefs characters go through. This drives them to engage in faiths elsewhere.
Main / Influence Domains
As a result of their intrinsic natures in “Novel Structure,” MAIN CHARACTER (Protagonist)'s tendency to hold onto fixed attitudes comes into conflict with IMPACT CHARACTER (Emotion)'s tendency to foster situations.
Main Character Problem / Solution
In “Novel Structure,” MAIN CHARACTER (Protagonist) is driven by conscience. Ultimately, only temptation can satisfy that drive.
Main Character Problem / Symptom
Because conscience is what drives MAIN CHARACTER (Protagonist) in “Novel Structure”, it tends to focus on hindrance which it sees as the cause of its troubles.
Main Character Symptom / Response
In “Novel Structure,” MAIN CHARACTER (Protagonist) focuses on hindrance. As a result, it finds itself pulled toward help.
Influence Character Problem / Solution
In “Novel Structure,” IMPACT CHARACTER (Emotion) is driven to consider. However, it will not be truly satisfied unless it comes to reconsider.
Influence Character Problem / Symptom
in “Novel Structure,” IMPACT CHARACTER (Emotion) is driven to consider. As a result, it tends to focus on disbelieving.
Influence Character Symptom / Response
In “Novel Structure,” IMPACT CHARACTER (Emotion) believes something in response to having disbelieved something else.
Main Character Unique Ability / Critical Flaw
In “Novel Structure,” MAIN CHARACTER (Protagonist) is uniquely able to drive the story toward a conclusion because of its closure. However, this impact is undermined by a tendency to preconceive.
Influence Character Unique Ability / Critical Flaw
In “Novel Structure,” IMPACT CHARACTER (Emotion) is uniquely able to pressure MAIN CHARACTER (Protagonist) because of its openness. However, this impact on MAIN CHARACTER (Protagonist) is undermined by a tendency toward denial.
Someone else might be more helpful here. I generally kinda discover which characters have which traits along the way rather than assigning them up front.
What I find is that the deeper I get into the story, the more I understand it, and the more I understand it the deeper I want to go. I don’t usually mess with which characteristic goes to which character, but in the past i’ve tried to map out every instance of every problem and focus and issue and benchmark and added all the PSR stuff and whatever else I could before starting. What I generally end up with is a very well mapped out story complete with every tiny detail that needs to be included from “Once upon a time” to “rode off into the sunset”…and absolutely no desire to turn the darn thing into a story.
As I mentioned before, once you have the Sign Posts mapped out it’s easy to add a quick sentence or two about theme or whatever whenever inspiration hits, of if you just want to quickly outline everything right before you write it. But for me overdoing it kills inspiration. The reason I go through the Sign Posts is because it can be done fairly quickly (and therefore without draining all motivation out of me) and it gives you the entire plot.
If you want to include Journeys with your Sign Posts, then I’d think of the Sign Posts as just a moment in the the story, like the counselor telling Luke it’s time to let the memory of his brother go (or whatever you go with). Then the journey would be the full exploration of Memories and maybe just keeping an eye on whatever SP comes next.
I’ve outlined lots of stories, but written (or mostly written) very few in comparison. I’d love to see how others do this.
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Whoa, all this time, I’d never looked at that one before! Extremely cool.
I already knew my story’s conflict. What I know now is how to describe it in Dramatica’s language.
What’s the value added for spending a week learning to describe my story in Dramatica’s language? I don’t think that’s an unreasonable question to ask. I started off with saying that I take pride in my ability to write scenes, but that I’m not good at stringing scenes together into a story. That was my goal. That is my goal. To learn how to string scenes together to make this story in my head into something I can get published. You put in a lot of effort and I feel like I was a good student. But, I still don’t know how to string a bunch of scenes together to turn them into a story I can get published.
I’m also wondering how many totally awesome stories from Gregolas we’re never going to see because he got burned out and lost his passion for them while trying to create complete storyforms for them.
Uh oh. I sense a risk of this thread devolving. 
Let’s try to stay as productive as possible.
Up until now, we’ve only been analysing your story ideas. That’s kind of a “read-only” mode of using Dramatica. Now it’s time for you to start putting in the hard work. Try illustrating all the story points, like I suggested. Or, if that seems daunting, focus on illustrating the signposts, like Greg suggested. Post your results here, or in a new thread, if you’re comfortable sharing. (You can also use private threads so it’s not public on the internet.)
Ask piles of questions on the forum whenever you’re not sure about something, e.g. “does my Antagonist teaching Boone and Luke not to underestimate him fit an OS Signpost of Learning / Gathering Info?” Use new threads for these questions if possible, so others can chime in too (100+ posts can steer people away).
Keep in mind it takes months and months to become comfortable and familiar with Dramatica. Even the experts are still learning new things after decades using it. That’s not to say it can’t be useful now – it can be incredibly useful even from the beginning. And the absolutely best way to learn is by doing, which you’ve already started by analysing your own story. Now you can write the story with the storyform (or potential storyforms) beside you and use them to guide your writing, and you’ll be improving your understanding of Dramatica the whole time.
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Not many. I love writing, but good ideas and talent also factor into being published. I can’t say how much I’ve got of either. And anyway, having a fully completed outline is miles further than I was getting without Dramatica. Before Dramatica I could write some cool scenes that I loved, but couldn’t really figure out how to string them together into a full story or how to fill in the missing pieces. I think you mentioned a problem with stringing them together as well.
The thing about spending a week using Dramatica to get your ideas in order is that you are able to write exactly what you want to say and know exactly how to say it. Heck, even better, you know exactly what you want to say before you start. Imagine not using Dramatica, and spending four or six weeks writing this great story about Norse Gods and murder and action sequences only to realize that you changed directions half way through and now need to rewrite the entire thing with one direction or the other in mind just to have a functioning first draft. With Dramatica, you know what four stories you need to tell and the themes coming from all of them. You don’t have to worry about going off track. You know you’re going to have a meaningful message at the end. I’ll bet that would save most people more than a week of rewrites. And, again, I think going through all this stuff gives me a much deeper understanding of anything I’ve written than I ever could have dreamed without it.
If you want to go further than what I’ve suggested (describing each Sign Post) you can do that and I’ll happily tell you how I would do it (although I don’t suggest my method is the best, or even all that great). But if you’re dying to get this story down on paper, I think having everything you’ve done up to that point is enough to make sure you have a proper argument that can keep you on track and is enough to allow you to start writing. Dramatica is there to make sure you have a solid argument, so if you’ve got an understanding of all the Dramatica points, you should be able to write a solid story.
But let me ask you, what would you like to have before writing your story? If you want a more detailed outline, we can keep going. I don’t mean to say you can’t go deeper and deeper. I only caution not to overdo it and get bored with the telling of your story. Also, I may have said something in a way I shouldn’t have before. Don’t think of it as I’m losing passion for telling a story. Think of it more like, once I’ve gone so deep in Dramatica, I’ve basically told myself the story and now i’m excited to move on to the next one.
But seriously, let us know what you were hoping to have next and let’s see what Dramatica can do.
By determining your storyform, you’ve done much, much more than simply describe your story in Dramatica’s language. Unless you already knew that all of your overall story’s conflict stemmed from Conscience (which I don’t think you did, because until today you had it stemming from Reconsider), your storyform is telling you something fundamental about your story that you didn’t consciously know before. And that’s just one out of 75 story points, all of which work together to form a coherent narrative.
Publishing depends on more factors than just story structure, but to help you “string a bunch of scenes together” you can try the signpost & story point encoding that Greg and I mentioned. You can also just start writing now, knowing that the storyform is there to guide you whenever something seems off. Whenever any of my scenes seem off – flat or boring or missing the point a bit – I ask myself “how is HELP causing problem in this scene?” (Help is my Overall Story Problem). I find that kind of thinking really focuses me in on the true conflict.
And more to your point about stringing a bunch of scenes together, you can ask that question at a higher level – a sequence of several scenes, a whole act. Even characters – all your OS characters should be somehow driven by the OS Problem (Conscience).
Other story points can also be used the same way. “How do the characters focus on Logic here, how to they respond with Feeling?” (Symptom/Response), “How are they driving toward Becoming Earth’s new defenders?” (Story Goal), etc.
Wait, back up. The quote above should be
The fact is that I knew that Boone was foregoing an immediate benefit (that is, security) because of future circumstances (the TDE going around killing incarnates and shifting the inputs of Ragnarok so that the Aesir might not win). I knew that Luke was foregoing an immediate benefit (accepting the ride to college) because of future circumstances (his step-dad’s depression). AND I knew that Boone’s problems stemmed from his belief that maybe Loki can be helpful. What I did not know was how to sacrifice either of those (temptation or reconsider) for the sake of the storyform (note: I said for the sake of the storyform, not for the sake of the story since I can always ignore what Dramatica says). Learning that was part of learning the Dramatica language.
I’ve been working on that. I’ve got about half of my first draft on this project (making an outline built of signposts, problems, and themes) done. But, that leaves unused a lot of what Dramatica gives a person.
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I see what you mean. If your story idea was already a full, complete narrative, then yeah, Dramatica doesn’t help you that much at this stage. There are plenty of complete narratives from before Dramatica was invented (Shakespeare plays being the best example, but lots of films too).
Where Dramatica really helps is when you have blind spots (where you might misalign or leave out certain story points, or even a whole throughline). Or when you run into trouble and know something’s not right but aren’t sure how to fix it.
Note if you’re looking for more inspiration and ideas from Dramatica, you can definitely use the Plot Sequence Report (aka PSR). That can give you ideas for the sequences WITHIN each signpost. Just keep in mind the PSR can change a lot with a small storyform change.
Oh, you had asked a question about Journeys earlier. I tend to think of the signpost as covering the entire act, with the journey adding colour to the portion of the act close to the act turn. Usually this is more noticeable around a slide than a bump.
For example, say your OS Signpost 1 is Doing and your OS Signpost 2 is Obtaining, and your First Act Turn driver is between chapter 10 and 11. So, chapters 1-7 would focus mostly on Doing, and then around chapter 8 or 9 there would a bit more Obtaining coloring the Doing. A shift happens at the end of chatper 10, so that Obtaining is now more focused, but Doing still colours that until Chapter 13 or something. Similar for the other throughlines. It’s not a hard and fast science, or even something you necessarily try to do, just something that tends to work out that way, especially for Slides.
This is what I’ve got so far. Some suggestions and advice is appreciated and would be helpful.
OS Signposts
Understanding – Appreciating the Meaning of the Relic
Obtaining – Obtaining Luke, Establishing the Goal of getting the relic back
Gathering Information – Discovering where TDE is and how to catch him
Doing – Catching TDE and reclaiming the relic
MC Signposts
Memories – Counseling session discussing Jason’s death
Impulsive Responses – Learning to tap into his wyrd*
Innermost Desires – Has Luke replaced his Luke-self with his Loki-self? How far can he be trusted?
Contemplation – “Who am I now?” Luke asks as he realizes he is dual-natured
IC Signposts
The Past
How Things Are Changing – “TDE has the Relic, how does that change things?”
The Future - “I am Baldur, working shoulder to shoulder with Loki as Ragnarok approaches. What does that make of my Future?”
The Present – TDE has been defeated, but the relic has disappeared. Still, Ragnarok approaches. What is this world I am living in?
RS Signposts
Developing a Plan = to obtain the relic
Playing a Role – We each have a role to play
Changing One’s Nature =
Conceiving an Idea =
*wyrd - The ancient Norse had this idea of destiny which is very similar to the three blind Greek Fates. One’s life was predetermined. For the Norse, the Fates were called the Norns. I’ve taken the idea of living as we are destined to do so. If we are true to our selves, then we can gain power. In the case of a god who is true to himself/herself, he can use extraordinary power. Baldur can summon the rays of the Sun to heal, he can inspire with words, etc. Loki (who in Norse myth is more closely associated with fire rather than ice, sorry Marvel) can conjure transformative magic which usually shows itself as fire. He can also create illusions and cloud the minds of others. Luke has not quickened yet and, when he does, he must come to terms with his Loki-self before he can access his wyrd.
I relate to this.
Sorry I’m late to this conversation and have only had time to skim the thread, but it sounds like you have a great story here.
You’re in good hands with @mlucas and @Gregolas but have you taken a look at Dramatica for Screenwriters by Armando Saldanamora? He has lots of diverse examples in there about how to string together scenes by encoding signposts and/or using the plot sequence report. Check out the chapter “Signposts as Plot Twists” for a good intro (but read the whole book – it’s worth it).
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Cool! Let’s look at the Overall Story first.
The first Signpost is really good. You probably already have this in your head, but just remember that a signpost is both a focus area and a source of trouble. For example, their attempts to understand the relic cause them trouble, or when they try to tell others what it means, that causes trouble, that kind of thing.
For TDE, of course, his understanding of the relic is inherently problematic (even if it comes easily for him), because that understanding leads to further evil.
The second Signpost, I’m not totally feeling Obtaining there. Obtaining Luke is kind of okay, that would be like “achieving getting Luke on board”. Is that what you were going for? I’m just wondering if there might also be more Obtaining going on in this act, like TDE using the relic to hunt for incarnates (and maybe finding and killing some), or trying to find the incarnates before TDE does and help them escape. Or something else. Trying to get the relic back is definitely Obtaining, but just establishing the goal of doing so, not so much (unless they had to win a contest to do it or something).
Signpost 3 is really good, as long as you make the conflict come from the actual learning and gathering information there. The key thing is that the source of trouble is from the act of learning (researching, spying, fact-finding, whatever), not from the thing learnt. But it sounds like that’s what you’re going for, so I think you’re good!
Signpost 4 actually sounds more like Obtaining, because those things (catching and reclaiming) have end goals. Doing is more about the activities than the end goals. That said, I have a feeling you have some activities in mind here. Maybe it’s like, while they’re catching TDE and reclaiming the relic, conflict comes from the things they have to do in support of that – the necessary act of killing might feel reprehensible, for example. Or the physical stuff they have to do is really taxing.
OTOH, it’s okay if you don’t know exactly what they will be Doing at this point, since it’s all the way into Signpost 4 you can probably just pencil in a placeholder.
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Excellent suggestions, mlucas!
The second Signpost I wrote worried me because no matter how I lay the story out, Luke is first asked to help Boone within the 1st set of milestones. Flipping the whole thing over by having “obtaining” first and foremost refer to TDE’s hunting of NGs to kill helps with that. There is a struggle with regards to Luke/Loki. Both TDE and Boone are looking to have Luke/Loki join their side. As I mentioned earlier, TDE is trying to put Boone and Luke together under stress in an effort to get Luke to draw more and more upon his Loki-self, which, TDE believes, will quicken Loki’s corruption. In that sense, there is quite a lot of conflict over who obtains Luke in the 2nd signpost. The closer that Boone seems to be winning in that regard might be the closer Boone gets to failing in that regard.
It appears in the 3rd Signpost that Luke has killed Boone. He is accused of it, but the evidence is uncertain. Luke insists that he hasn’t done this, but he’s the god of lies and deception. For many, his word means little. He takes what allies he can persuade to participate in his plan against TDE. They must have faith in him. They must act on that faith (this is where the Doing comes in). Luke pretends to be corrupted and comes to TDE, maneuvering his allies into position, so that he can take TDE out of commission. Boone is revealed to have not died at all, rather this was all a ploy.
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Hello YellowSuspenders, welcome to our little club!
I’m joining the discussion pretty late here, but I want to reality-check a couple of things. I know you’ve stated that your goal is to have a complete draft of this story in 6 weeks. While I wish you the best of luck with that, you should know that is cutting yourself very little slack. Stories (especially good ones) take time. If you’ve already written a novel or two and you know 6 weeks is doable for you, then more power to you.
Secondly, those signposts are a bit concerning to me. I second what Mike said-- signpost 4 of your OS sounds much more like obtaining to me than anything else. May I ask-- how much of this story do you already have written? If you know for certain that you want this story to end with the capture of TDE, then I’d suggest clearing your storyform and putting in the correct signpost order first before making other selections. Moreover, the signposts are supposed to be an objective overview of what happens in your story. The way you’re encoding the IC signposts concerns me because it seems you’re trying to portray them from your IC’s POV. There is a time and a place to worry about how these issues will appear to your IC, but this is not that place.
Creating a first draft is tough, and I highly recommend starting with the big picture. Pin down the correct act order and domains before worrying about problem/solution elements. Otherwise, you may get lost in the weeds. If you are motivated to write a story it’s probably because your brain has already intuited a storyform for it. You just have to make that intuitive sense tangible. Dramatica is a great tool to do that, but like I said, it’s best to work from general to specific. Imagine you’re building a house; no point waffling about paint color until you’ve got your walls exactly where you want them!
Let’s strip this story back to the basics (temporarily). Could you tell me your MC’s journey in one sentence (including his name. I’m pretty sure it’s Luke. . . )?
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@Audz, I actually recommended against this. For myself, I would never choose Signposts before Problem elements (though I might sometimes kind of close my eyes and hope I get one particular signpost in the right place, like Yellow did with MC SP 1 Memories). Why? To me, Issue, Problem, Symptom, Response and Solution are far, far more clear than signposts before I’ve written the story. You’ve got the Concern and Benchmark clouding things, for one, and sometimes I might think something is one Type when really it’s another. (Plus, I may know hardly anything about a huge chunk of the story’s plot, when I start.)
To me, signposts are the most “specific” thing, except maybe Driver, Unique Ability, and Benchmarks.
That said, I know some people think of stories much differently than I do, so I totally support if @YellowSuspenders wants to try this. There’s a good chance you’re right and the signposts would be clearer to him than the problem elements.
Hmm. Well, the reason why I suggest pinning down the signposts first is that the ending of the OS with the capture of TDE seems like the most solid of the storypoints we have so far. The problem and solution elements seem more uncertain/more subject to change. Therefore, I would think pinning down obtaining as OS signpost 4 would be the best move, because that would help rule out storyforms that wouldn’t allow for such an ending.
Actually, I think it’s probably okay that TDE gets captured in the end even if Signpost 4 isn’t Obtaining. The Goal and Concern are Obtaining, so there’s gonna be some Obtaining everywhere, especially at the end when the story gets resolved. And Yellow is pretty new to Dramatica so he may not have zeroed in on the final act’s Doing in his first go at illustrating.
An act / signpost in a novel can be pretty long, so there’s a lot of opportunity for it to be dealing with something else besides that one event.
I agree though, it would be nice to know how confident Yellow feels about the Problem, Symptom, Response, and Solution elements for each throughline…
If you end up sticking with the form you’ve got, you might play around with this and try a few different things just to make sure everything is working right. Something like…
1.OS Story-Stopping the Dark Elf
Understanding – Not understanding that the Dark Elf has the prophecy prevents the Incarnates from being prepared for his attack.
Obtaining – An attempt to capture the Dark Elf leads to the Incarnates being led into a trap
Gathering Information – learning that the Dark Elf has the prophecy convinces the Incarnates they can’t beat him.
Doing – Standing up to the Dark Elf leads to an epic battle where Luke must quicken or die.
2.OS Story - retrieving the prophecy
Understanding – understanding that the prophecy has been taken leads to fear and infighting amongst the incarnates
Obtaining – not having possession of the prophecy prevents the incarnates from quickening and makes them easier for TDE to kill
Gathering Information – learning what the prophecy says about Luke one day betraying everyone causes the Incarnates not to trust him
Doing – destroying the prophecy causes Luke/Loki to come very near dying.
Try it three or four times and you might start to see that, like Mike said, maybe your SP 4 is about the troubles with Doing things rather than the troubles brought about by trying to Obtain TDE even if this is the part where they end up catching him.
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Yeah, I guess so-- but even if it’s possible, the description of those signposts set off alarm bells for mistakes I’ve made with Dramatica in the past, where I tried to twist the story I was writing into an ill-fitting Dramatica signpost order, rather than taking the difficulty I was having as an indication that I didn’t have the right storyform yet.
Maybe that fourth signpost really is Doing over Obtaining, but it seems unlikely given the way we’ve been describing the events of that quarter of the story so far.