Do you know what you call an author who never gets past storyforming? Homeless.
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And what do you call an author whose poorly structured novels never get published?
I’m just joshing.
Look, if you are itching to start writing, then by all means, start writing! In fact, that’s what I would recommend you do anyway. You said you’re a strong scene-based writer; if I were you, I would take a crack at every scene I knew I wanted to have in the story. Worrying about your exact storyform before you’ve gotten your most exciting scenes and images on the page is often putting the cart before the horse, leading to that old friend, paralysis-by-analysis.
Once you’ve run out of steam with the writing, or when you hit too many snags, that’s when I’d recommend returning to your storyform and trying to puzzle out the missing pieces. It’s a lot easier to find the right storyform when you’ve got something solid to apply it to first!
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I think there’s at least two ways of approaching a storyform. You can assume your idea is already aligned to a particular storyform and search for that exactly right storyform to help you fill in the gaps when you aren’t able to fill them in yourself. That seems to be the most often suggested option on here.
The other way is to take a partially formed idea, match it up as close as you can to a storyform, and then just decide what you want the rest of the storyform to be and mold your story to it. This is the option I find to be the most helpful because you don’t have to come up with a fully formed idea. If you trust that Dramatica works, you allow it guide you through completing the idea.
Both options are, I’d say, valid options.
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I tentatively suggest that there may be a third way. In this case, you write whatever you can. When you get to a point you haven’t thought through before, you pants it. AFTER you’ve written whatever feels right to you, THEN you put the new information into Dramatica and review your newly revised storyform.
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I really like your first set of illustrations! However, where do you intend to bring Boone and Luke together?
Also, do you have any ideas on the four Plot Sequence squares?
In this case, they’d be
OS Signpost 1: Not understanding that the Dark Elf has the prophecy prevents the Incarnates from being prepared for his attack
Closure Hope Dream Denial
OS Signpost 2: An attempt to capture the Dark Elf leads to the Incarnates being led into a trap
Obtaining, Evidence, Suspicion, Falsehood
OS Signpost 3: learning that the Dark Elf has the prophecy convinces the Incarnates they can’t beat him.
Doubt, Appraisal, Reappraisal, Investigation
OS Signpost 4: Standing up to the Dark Elf leads to an epic battle where Luke must quicken or die.
Value, Confidence, Worry, Worth
Did you notice that if I put Obligation as the 4th Signpost for OS and keep Understanding as the 1st Signpost, then Gathering Information is the 2nd and Doing is the 3rd?
I much prefer to keep Gathering Inforation as the 3rd.
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I think this is an extremely important point that is maybe worth exploring in another thread. There are quite a few different approaches to leveraging Dramatica for storytelling, depending on the author, the particular story, and what has already been developed, and I think some clarity/thinking on what those approaches are could be really useful.
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Yes, that is a limitation of Dramatica. You can either have Gathering Information (Learning) as the third signpost in the OS, or have Obtaining as the fourth signpost, but not both.
At the risk of kicking a hornet’s nest, when you describe your second signpost as “establishing the goal of getting the relic back,” that sounds a lot more like Gathering Information than it does like Obtaining. Meanwhile, "discovering where TDE is* could be Gathering Information, but it could also very easily be Doing.
Identifying any signpost in isolation is very difficult. All four quarters of your story will involve obtaining things, doing things, gathering information and understanding things. The question is one of proportion. When I say that your fourth signpost sounds like it should be Obtaining, I mean that relative to the other three signposts. Similarly, the third signpost could be either Gathering information or Doing. Relative to signpost 2, however, signpost 3 sounds more “active.”
With that said, you probably don’t have to worry about this stuff right now. If what you have in your head makes sense to you and helps you write the story you want to write, great! That ultimately is what matters, not whether your understanding of every single storypoint is technically correct or not. You can have the perfect storyform, but it isn’t worth squat without a story!
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I can answer this either way, but did we decide for sure that TDE is being used as the IC? Or is there a chance it could be Boone?
How is your opinion affected by what I wrote earlier about
TDE is trying to put Boone and Luke together under stress in an effort to get Luke to draw more and more upon his Loki-self, which, TDE believes, will quicken Loki’s corruption. In that sense, there is quite a lot of conflict over who obtains Luke in the 2nd signpost. The closer that Boone seems to be winning in that regard might be the closer Boone gets to failing in that regard.
There’s a lot of obtaining going on in the second milestone; TDE trying to obtain a corrupted Luke as an ally, Luke gaining corruption, Boone gaining an ally, the good guys struggling to obtain the relic, TDE obtaining unquickened Aesir to murder, etc.
First, I said “not understanding that TDE has the prophecy…” This should have been worded different because that sounds more like Learning as is. Maybe it could be “misunderstanding the message of the prophecy” or “misunderstanding the importance of the prophecy”
Here’s what I’m thinking either though.
- If TDE is IC, then Luke being recruited by Boone is OS. I believe you said the prophecy gets stolen prior to Boone going for Luke. So the Incarnates misunderstand something related to the prophecy which causes them to be unprepared for an attack. That’s SP1. Maybe J1 could be understanding that the Incarnates need help to get the prophecy back, which is a problem because this means they must turn to Luke/Loki, who is supposed to turn against them at some point. So the journey is understanding that they need Luke on their side, which transitions to Obtaining Luke’s help, which could be a SP2 ift causes problems in some way.
- If Boone is possibly the IC, then I think developing a plan to get the relic back (RS SP1) could be where that relationship begins. Boone’s plan to get the relic back involves recruiting Luke. Luke might love the idea and immediately become friends with Boone over it, or might hate the idea and push against Boone and the idea which starts the relationship off on the wrong foot. (Keep in mind, RS tends to be a big blind spot for me, take this advice with caution).
I’ll have to come back to the PSR stuff.
My intention has always been that Boone is the IC.
Couldn’t remember. I was thinking TDE and it’s hard to scroll through 150 posts on my cell. But I like that option much better. That allows you to have Boone recruiting Luke in their own story.
I agree with this. The antagonist hunting down and murdering the teenage incarnates (aka unquickened Aesir) is a really strong pointer toward Obtaining as signpost 2, IMO. There might even be some attempts to find and rescue them, and/or they might try to escape when TDE comes.
I’ll do my best to answer this question, but understand that it is a complicated one. If this stops being helpful, feel free to ignore it. There is a lot to learn if you are new to Dramatica. If this is your first time attempting to build a storyform for your story, the single most important thing you can do is be patient with yourself. This is going to take time; think of it like learning an instrument. It won’t happen overnight.
Is TDE trying to “obtain a corrupted Luke,” or is he trying to corrupt him? Getting Luke to draw increasingly on his Loki-self does not sound at ALL like obtaining to me. It is far too process-oriented (as opposed to state oriented) an endeavor.
When you say things like “Luke [is] gaining corruption,” this sounds to me like you are twisting your story around signposts that don’t fit. I guess you could characterize the process of a person being gradually corrupted as them “gaining corruption,” but it’s a stretch.
Moreover, I’m not sure the conflict is about who “obtains” Luke at this juncture of the story. It sounds like the conflict is more about who makes headway in convincing Luke to see things the way they do. And how do they do this? They’re not trying to kidnap him, they’re trying to win him over, presumably by conversation or argument or manipulation. Whatever obtaining might result or precede these endeavors would fall outside the bounds of this signpost.
And at the end of the day, none of these instances of “Obtaining” sound half as much like “Obtaining” as does “catching TDE and reclaiming the relic.” Those are clearly state-oriented endeavors that result in capture or possession. In light of this description you provided of your story’s ending, I would definitely say that Signpost 4 should be Obtaining, not signpost 2.
Within the context of everything you just said (not to say that I agree with it or not, but just to keep an open mind), how would you lay out the Signposts mentioned in your last post?
Well, this is where some additional information would be helpful!
I know that Dramatica frames the OS as what everyone in the story is concerned about, and while this is true, it’s often more helpful to limit your considerations to the protagonist when selecting signposts. I’m not sure if your protagonist is Loki or Baldur, though it sounds like it’s probably one or the other.
With that said, I’d assign those OS signposts as follows:
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Learning (Gathering Information)-- Protag learns about the relic and what it means.
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Understanding-- Protag appreciates true value of relic and realizes it must be gotten back. Luke realizes where his true allegiances lie, and joins the good guys.
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Doing-- The gang sets out to locate TDE
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Obtaining-- The gang catches TDE and reclaims the relic
Also, it’s worth noting that Obtaining and Understanding are easy to confuse with one another; same with learning and doing. You could think of Understanding as the obtaining of knowledge.
Okay, but you also mentioned
Does this take place in the OS or the MC? If the MC, then what do those relevant Signposts look like in your opinion?
I don’t think that’s right. Learning is the obtaining of knowledge, which gives awareness. Understanding is the appreciation of meaning.
For example, we watch a person loading bullets into a gun (learning), which he then points at our head (awareness). He seriously intends to kill us (meaning) is different.
Nope. Learning is the process of acquiring knowledge. The actual gaining of awareness is Understanding. Sorry if this seems like splitting hairs, but take a look at the gists for Understanding vs the gists for Learning and I think you’ll appreciate the difference.