About the term INFLUENCE

It’s my interpretation that all characters have an INFLUENCE on The Main Character even if by degrees of seperation.
Some just have a more profound influence than others.

1979’s PHANTASM demonstrates one of the coolest INFLUENCE/MAIN Character relationships ever.

The Tall Man (Antagonist) is truly one of cinema’s most endearing villains (though he’s overshadowed by his contemporaries) largely in part because ot the INFLUENCE/MAIN Character relationship.

SPIOLERS.

Michael (MAIN) has taken to visiting a spiritual medium in search of guidance.
There he delivers some exposition (handled eloquently) and is told there is nothing to fear - that fear is Michael’s problem.

The medium explores one of Michaels woes on her own and is dispatched.

She was wrong. There is something to fear.

A sequence then reveals that Michael’s biggest problem is The Tall Man invading his subconcious.

The Influence character was RIGHT. Fear is the problem.

Of course The Tall Man poses a real threat after all and this proves the Influence character wrong
as Michael’s SKEPTIC/SIDEKICK/INFLUENCE/ALLY/PROTAGONIST brother encourages Michael to abide by fear.
There is something to fear.

Michael recalls his visit to the medium, resists fear and proves one influence character (his brother) wrong and the other Influence character (the spirit medium) was really on to something after all.

Michael awakens from his dream of defeating The Tall Man.
Was she ever right - it was all just a dream!

Michael discovers the other influence characters in his dream are indeed dead - particularly his SKEPTIC/SIDEKICK/INFLUENCE/ALLY/PROTAGONIST brother who declared victory by his side in the dream.

The dream was a wishful fantasy about conquering a desperate fear of loss.
The spirit medium was wrong.

Michael resolves that reality dictates one must overcome fear of loss or life is but a kind of living death.
Surely the spirit medium must be right.

The Tall Man manifests and defeats Michael.
Was she ever wrong!

Can y’all follow that?
If not, I really need to practice on my writing :wink:

Any thoughts?

I think you are misunderstanding the role of the Influence Character in Dramatica. It is not simply anyone with whom the Main Character exchanges meaningful conversation. It “forces the Main Character to face his [or her] personal problem.”

Having not seen Phantasm, Michael’s brother sounds like he could be the Influence Character, but it is definitely not the spirit medium.

I also think you’re getting tripped up by mixing and mashing the objective archetypes (protagonist, guardian, etc) with the subjective roles (main and influence character). I recommend focusing on fully understanding the latter group first – watch / read stories on the dramatica list, compare with the comprehensive analyses, view the group discussions, etc. Understanding those two roles is fundamental.

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It is certainly possible that more than one character has influence on the Main Character. Generally, though, the design of a story is such that this influence is contained in one character or a set of characters that can be identified fairly easily. Influence isn’t spread like butter over all of the other characters usually.

In general, stories are designed so that the Main Character or the Influence Character hold the key to a Success ending. Given that the MC believes they know what is best (real like example: who likes uninvited advice?), they are largely resistant to other ideas. Since everyone thinks they know best, they are also largely impermeable to advice, and so everyone keeps moving along generally as is. However, when Success seems far away, people tend to open their eyes and look around – but they only look to the people they think might have something relevant to say. That is generally the IC.

There are stories where change happens gradually. They won’t have exactly that structure.

But: larger point. The story example you wrote out seems heavily – if not entirely – focused on the Overall Story. What is the subjective problem the MC has? Fear? What is the trait of the IC that influences them? You never say. I think you’re blending the throughlines here, and it is impeding your understanding.

Good Points.

I am mashing away.

I’m definitely talking about story more in my terms than Dramatica’s.

I’d agree that the Brother is more likely The INFLUENCE character - especially considering there are very few more in the story.
I’m just fascinated by the Overall Story ? Perhaps?

Lots of writers love PLOT and are engaged by it. They tend to focus entirely on the Overall Story, and similar kinds. It can lead to a successful writing career, but people are unlikely to fall in love with your stories, and they tend to have a similar feel to them unless you distract the reader/viewer with genre.

I think my intentions for this post were misinterpreted - if not misguided on my part.

Any similarities between the Tale Of Phantasm and Dramatica’s Grand Argument are surely coincidental - which is the point I’m trying to discuss.

Phantasm’s MC seems to be a steadfast protagonist archetype, complete with the unique ability to solve the OS problem. But writhing underneath the plot (is the plot the OS?) - the conflict between fear and confidence - and the only reason the audience even understands this is because of the Archetype who defined MC’s “internal problem” and influenced him to remain steadfast.

And finally my point is that all the conflict Phantasm’s ProtagMC experiences influences his natural state - challenges his nature in fact, but influencing him to act none the less. Uniquely so, one might argue.

If I understand Dramatica, the IC does not have to be in a scene for this unique influence to be in the scene, and that the IC can be “swapped out” for another that speaks “on behalf of” the original IC.

That tells me that the term INFLUENCE is of deeper importance to the core of a tale or grand argument than just one IC.

Shouldn’t we, theoretically, have multiple Archetypes performing the IC’s role (challenging the MC’s nature) in addition to their primary function - is not their function specifically to challenge the MC’s nature…?

Aren’t they all Influence Characters?
Arguing for or against the ProtagMC’s approach , or nature - in Phantasm’s case, protagMC’s unique ability to simply remain steadfast?

or am i a space-shot trying to derail my own thread?

Influence does outrank the need for a single IC. Some stories use multiple ICs, some don’t. But what doesn’t change here is that the Influence comes from a competing perspective.

When you have multiple characters in a story, and they share a concern (They are all concerned about obtaining for instance, even if it’s not obtaining the same thing) then they are presenting competing arguments that are not the way the MC does things. So, you’re right there.

The thing is, they don’t challenge the MC enough to make him think his way is wrong generally. That is how the IC is different.

Thanks.
I’m thinking the Tale of Phantasm juxtaposes it’s small cast in just such a way though.
I think most of my ideas are kind of like that - so now I see what you’re saying is very good food for thought.