Choosing domains of Psychology vs. Mind

questions
#1

Hi everyone,

I’m having a hard time pinpointing if I have chosen the right Storypoints and would love some insights.
I’ve had scenes of a story niggling in the back of my but could never really grasp what the story is about. I started writing down these scenes and searched for elements that seemed to stand out. Doing this I finally understood that my IC is a different character and I managed to pinpoint his drive/problem on trust (trust in the wrong thing and lack of confidence that drives him to extreme measures). I was pretty happy with the storyform I got, until I started writing paragraphs using the static storypoints (Armando’s instant Dramatica technique). And now I’m confused if I have chosen the throughlines appropriately. It feels like I’m not seeing the forest for all the trees and would love any feedback you can offer.

  • My MC is in the Manipulation domain: she is being manipulated by her father and her unquestioned trust in him, allow him to continue doing so for the majority of the story.

  • The IC is in Activity, as his most significant impact on the MC and the other characters are through the things he does to keep them in the dark and keep his position of power.
    But since he is in a position of power + the father of the MC, Situation could also fit. How can I weed out, if it is his position and not his activities that impact all involved?
    The MC can question not only the IC’s intentions but also uncover them. She doesn’t do this at first, because it never crosses her mind, that her father might have evil plans. To me, this raises the question: is her domain really Psychology or is it her mindset that holds the actual problem?
    I have pegged her as a Be-er (she transforms her appearance to fit into her environment), so I’m sure the MC is either Psychology or Mind. Going through the questions the Dramatica theory book proposed for the choice of the MCTL and OSTL two items stand out but point to different domains:

  • How am I/they being manipulated?

  • What is it that I/they remember about last night?

The issue I’m having with choosing is that to keep everyone in check, the father/IC manipulates thought processes. People are virtually unable to think in specific ways. The same mechanism leads to altered memories; they forget that they ever wanted to question him. In a way, the MC’s memories are more directly violated, while the other characters’ memories are indirectly altered. Does that make the OSTL = Psychology (affects their thinking processes) and the MCTL = Mind (her mindset and memories are affected)? Or does that make the ICTL one of both (his impact is on the internal processes, and not the external activities he engages in to gain control over the internal processes) and I’ve got it all wrong?!? I suspect the issue is that I’m focusing too much on the characters and maybe too little on their roles within the storymind. Any ideas of how I can separate these aspects more clearly?

What caused me to question my entire story form was writing the following paragraph for Goal and Requirements:
The characters’ goal is to free themselves from the conditioned notion, that they are free from tyranny. To do this, they have to realise that their thoughts are being governed and their ability to truly consider their world is restricted.

My Goal is currently set on Impulsive responses and the Requirements are Considerations. Does this fit to the term definitions?

I’m happy for any pointers! Thanks!

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#2

Hello Niandra, here are some of my thoughts

The way this is described sounds to me more like trust is the source of the problem in that her trust (source of conflict) is allowing her to be manipulated (actual conflict).

To me, this kind of points toward three different processes (things he does = physics, keep them in the dark = psychology or maybe mind, position of power = universe) but is missing the conflict to show that anything is actually a problem.

The difference would be something like this. IF the actual physical act of shredding documents, regardless of whether characters know what info is in them, creates conflict then you have a Physics problem. If not knowing what’s going on, whether it’s because the documents were shredded or otherwise, creates conflict you have an internal (psych or mind) problem. If the character being in charge of the secret organization, regardless of what he does or what info is kept in the dark, leads to conflict then you have a Universe problem. The idea is to really separate the processes so that you can point to one specific thing and say ‘that’s what’s creating or allowing conflict to happen’
If that line of thinking seems helpful to you, I’d be happy to go more in depth with it.

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#3

Hi Greg,
thanks a lot for your input. Your points on seeing the differences are quite helpful, although I feel like I’m standing in my own way of seeing what is in front of me. I’d really appreciate more of your input!

The way this is described sounds to me more like trust is the source of the problem in that her trust (source of conflict) is allowing her to be manipulated (actual conflict).
You’re right! Somewhere along the way I got so fixated on the IC’s impact that I got it all twisted. Initially, I had trust (she trusts and distrusts the wrong things and people) or knowledge (she holds onto the wrong learned/conditioned truths) as the MC’s problem.
To me, this kind of points toward three different processes (things he does = physics, keep them in the dark = psychology or maybe mind, position of power = universe) but is missing the conflict to show that anything is actually a problem.
It’s strange how the conflict seemed so obvious to me, but now I’m struggling to grasp it und feel unsure.
Let me see: The IC wants to find out more about a perceived threat. He sends his best investigator (MC) to gather information. The more information the MC gathers, the more she stops believing everything she is told. This results in the IC having to find new ways to brainwash the MC, because he needs her talents and of all the people around him, he trusts her the most. Simultaneously, she is also his biggest threat. Because of her innate abilities and her capability to access all the pertinent information, she is the only one able to stop him. And in the end, she does turn against him, because she realises that he is abusing his power and she won’t stand for it.
Does this express the conflict?
Looking at that paragraph I see an ICTL of Activity (the conflict starts/is caused because the IC tries to do things to maintain his position, if he hadn’t sent her off he wouldn’t have to brainwash her etc. and he wouldn’t end up turning her against him). The MCTL would then have to be Psychology, but I’m still wondering if I’m wrong. It feels as if it should be Mind. That’s me trying to think along your proposed lines. :frowning:

I read somewhere that to find the MC domain one can imagine what the MC would always be concerned with, no matter which story he was dropped into. Does this go for the IC as well? I find the IC so hard to grasp because it’s not really about the character but about his impact.

So could I ask myself: If the IC was a character in Alice in Wonderland, would he be concerned with doing everything to stay in power (Physics)? Would he always be concerned with keeping his position of power (Universe)? Would he always be concerned with manipulating the people around him to keep his position (Psychology)? Would he always be concerned with keeping up the illusion of a perfect world to keep his position (Mind)?

If I use those questions then I would go for Mind. But I’m not sure if I can actually use then as an aid. What do you think?

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#4

One thing that might help is to separate each throughline using a sentence or two to summarize it, as best you can. I wrote a blog post about that technique:

Based on your first post, I would probably peg the OS as Psychology because it seems like the whole story is about the tyranny via thought manipulation. Unless there is something else that the Overall Story is about that you haven’t mentioned yet. It sounds like you have an IC who may also be the Antagonist in the OS, and it’s probably a Stop story because the Consequences (tyranny and thought control) are already in place. That works with a Be-er MC (so she would be in Mind) and the father’s influence on her would be rooted in his position of power (which would include being her father too).

If that analysis is correct, I feel like you might need to look more carefully at your MC’s personal issues. Might they stem from love, fear, hatred, a strong belief in something (family values?), etc.?

Also, you’d need to check if the RS can work with Physics – is there violence between them? Do they relate through certain activities that they do together? Is physical affection (hugging, kiss on forehead, etc.) or the lack of it a problem between them?

Just some ideas. Don’t get too locked in to anything at this point! :slight_smile:

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#5

I’m going to answer two ways.

  1. Yes, I’d say it goes for the IC as well IN THAT you would look not to what the IC is concerned with in any story, but in how the IC influeances others in any story. Andy Dufresne in Shawshank Redemption influences Red through Physics. He gets put in jail, he tries to escape. He gets attacked by Boggs, he fights back. He gets put in unpleasant jobs, he does the officers taxes and shares his beer. These things influence Red to tell off the parole board. If Andy were in Alice in Wonderland, he would be doing all sorts of Physics in reaction to the problems there.

  2. This is a test designed to help determine an IC or MCs problem, but I wouldn’t say is definitive. There can be different ways to look at it, but I’m fairly rigid (looking at you,@mlucas :wink: ) with the idea that (source of conflict)+(conflict)=Dramatica. So it’s really about what source of conflict the IC either experiences, or influences in others, or whatever.

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#6

Think of it more as the you perspective, as in “how are you solving this problem? Say you’re trying to solve a puzzle, but just can’t get it to work, so you look over at your neighbor who seems to be easily solving the same puzzle and try to see what he’s doing so that you can do it the same way. That’s the IC perspective, you looking at yourneighbor to see if you should change how you’re doing things. But I’m a story, they aren’t both dealing with a puzzle. Instead, they are both dealing with the same metaphorical problem.

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#7

This also depends on more information – is the problem that the guy is manipulating thoughts (and if he stopped, everything would calm down), or is the problem that everyone is stuck with him as a tyrant ala Braveheart, i.e. would there still be a problem even if he wasn’t manipulating? The former might be Psychology, but the latter is Situation.

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#8

Just so you know what I mean by source of conflict and conflict, let’s say you wanted to write about dinosaurs escaping the zoo. You could say that shutting down the fences (source of conflict-Physics) allows the dinosaurs to break out (conflict) or you could say the dinosaurs breaking out (source) leads to ppl getting eaten (conflict). I find it easiest to break everything down into conflict and source of conflict like that because then you pinpoint exactly what process you’re trying to describe.

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#9

Totally agree – I was going by gut feel from what I’d read, which is dangerous especially over the internet!

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#10

This sounds like ‘tricking someone’ and a lot of the other stuff you’ve said sound like ‘thought control’. Those things, as sources of conflict, I’d think would be Psychology rather than Mind. Mind would be something like having a firm belief that he’s the only person competent enough for the position, or hating his subordinates.

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#11

I started to make a similar comment about Psychology, Mike, but cut myself off because i figured there needed to be more context. It can be easy to point ata statement and say ‘that’s this process’ but every time I do that without context I end up being way off! (And sometimes even with context)

Also, sorry for dropping so many posts on here today. Slow day at the office!

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#12

My first instinct when reading this was OS Psychology too, but of course it this stage the story material could probably fit any number of storyforms.

@Niandra have you tried Armando’s “Dramatica in 30 Seconds” approach with several different options? I think writing a handful of different brief synopses and comparing them for what feels right is worth the time.

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#13

And that’s what I’m getting at in some of my replies. Without more context, we can’t really even know if manipulating others is creating conflict or is the product of some other process.

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#14

@Niandra here’s a variation of Armando’s process where @Greg and @whitepaws were helping me come up with different possibilities for a story idea I had.

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#15

Hi all,
thanks a lot for your responses and @mlucas for the link. I will definitely try it out! You’re responses made it clear to that the main problem is, I just don’t know what my story is! :sob:

Based on your first post, I would probably peg the OS as Psychology because it seems like the whole story is about the tyranny via thought manipulation. Unless there is something else that the Overall Story is about that you haven’t mentioned yet.
My greatest problem is that the OS is the least developed in my mind. The aspect of tyranny came to me while I was storyforming, I liked it and decided to go with it. Some time ago I had this scene in mind and lately, it keeps coming back, niggling at me to be considered, so I decided to see what might come of it. In the scene the MC meets a stranger, who recognises her and knows her intimately. But she has no recollection of him. As I continued to watch the scene, the stranger decided to find out why she couldn’t remember and in doing so comes to realise that he as well as the others around him are being manipulated to stop questioning anything phoney. In the course of the story, it becomes apparent that the MC developed a second personality and this personality is not completely influenced by the overall brainwashing. Together with this alter ego the stranger manages to get the MC to change.
Now, when just looking at this sequence of events, the MC is the woman and the IC is the perceived stranger. The alter ego is her innate ability to uncover the truth and also the reason the antagonist sees her as a threat. When I dug deeper I realised that this was only part of the story. It’s actually the 3rd or 4th act. I realised that I was only seeing the tip of the iceberg and I started seeing more and more scenes that told the story of the stranger and the MC. I feel like I have two storyforms, one that tells the story of these two and one that tells the story of the father and daughter. The latter is what I’ve dubbed the blanket story as it stretches over the other stories and only touches in some places. Because I don’t really know where my muse is leading me (or if she really has a plan for that matter :pensive: ) many aspects evolve as I go on this ride she’s sent me on. So, there might be something I haven’t mentioned yet (because she hasn’t :unamused: ). So at the moment I’m focusing on the father-daughter story and hope to figure out the other storyline when I feel the blanket story is something I want to write about. As I am basically clueless about the OS story I decided to focus on the other 3 POVs, they are more tangible to me. But since focusing on the resulting Goal and requirements today, I’m not sure my tactic is paying off :frowning:
I really have to go back to the drawing board. Your insights have shown me how little I still understand about the story!

It sounds like you have an IC who may also be the Antagonist in the OS, and it’s probably a Stop story because the Consequences (tyranny and thought control) are already in place. That works with a Be-er MC (so she would be in Mind) and the father’s influence on her would be rooted in his position of power (which would include being her father too).
Yes, the IC is the antagonist to me. The driver is stop because the Consequences are already in place. But this is where I am sometimes unsure. It depends on where I start the story and which questions are the focus. Was the father always a tyrant or did he become one? Why did he become one? To me, he became a tyrant when he suspected his daughter could be a threat to him. [quote=“mlucas, post:4, topic:2308”]
If that analysis is correct, I feel like you might need to look more carefully at your MC’s personal issues. Might they stem from love, fear, hatred, a strong belief in something (family values?), etc.?
[/quote]

I agree the MC holds the key. I decided some time ago that fear is at the root of her issues. But which Dramatica item best describes fear? She is afraid to die, of herself and her abilities. It feels right to say, that most of her fear is a reaction to her father’s (IC) actions. So his impact on her is to become distrust and fearful and this also leads to his own demise.

I’d say violating a person’s trust and meddling with their memories is an act of violence, or? She is sort of his right hand, so yes they engage in activities together, or rather she is more like his spy and enforcer. Physical affection: I’d say there’s a lack of that. But I feel like this is less about their relationship and more about his impact. For example, he tends to get rid of anyone who could clue her in on what he is doing to her (his wife/her mother). I think she knows about the general manipulation and that some of her memories have been changed, but she believes it is the right way to deal with the issue. Which brings me back to trust being her central problem.

@Lakis you’re right, there are too many possibilities and I have to figure out where I want this whole thing to lead to. Yes, I’ve been testing out the storyform with Armando’s approaches. The storyform I currently have satisfies me except the Goal and Requirements paragraph. I realised that everything I wrote was more about manipulations than a fixed attitude until I managed to eak out the paragraph I posted here. And I’m still not sure if it’s a vain attempt at forcing the terms to represent my vision.

I find it very hard to come up with a Goal that represents Preconscious. Also since I have a stop story here, I feel like I have to look at things backwards. So not: what is it they want to achieve, but what is it they want to get rid of. Am I right about this?

Since in my mind the MC and the IC are quite clear I think focusing on them should help me create the whole story. And while I’m writing this I’ve come to realise, that the while the manipulation influences all the characters, the MC is most impacted by it. The others could live on without noticing but because of her ability to partially lift the fog (with the help of her second personality and the stranger) it concerns her the most. Does this make manipulation the MC domain or the IC domain? thumps head repeatedly against desk in frustration

Yes, while I was on my break I realised my questions where wrong because they didn’t refer to the impact/influence. When I try to focus on the IC’s drive I automatically look at what he is concerned with. Another issue of the powerful yet utterly confused aspect of impact.

I’ll try that out! thanks!

Good point! My first inclination is that it’s the latter. His manipulation might actually be the reason there is peace. The theme I keep seeing is the question if giving up freedom to live as you like is just another form of tyranny and therefore really a good choice.

Ugh, what a mess! Thanks for all your input and sorry for writing so much (nonsense).

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#16

Thanks a lot for the link @Lakis! Great method @Greg. I’m going to see where this leads me! Now I better appreciate why you were focusing on the conflict and source of conflict earlier! I still agree that the SOC is trust (she trusts too much in the wrong things and distrusts the right things) and the conflict that arises is that she lets herself be manipulated.

But I have a chicken and egg situation: What about her fear? Is her fear the cause for her trust issues or are her trust issues the cause for her fear? hmm, it’s her trust. Although she tells herself to trust, a part of her knows she can’t and that it is dangerous to trust. Because this is subconscious she can’t tell where the danger is coming from and becomes fearful of everything (exaggerated).
So:
Domain
An unchosen item is the source of the blind trust a daughter has in her father.
This is my starting point, right?
I think I’m going to rewrite a new paragraph with all the aspects I want so far and then try this approach and see where it leads me!

Thanks again to all of you for your help!

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#17

If you’re going with this:

Then you would have something like A daughters blind trust in her father (SOC) allows her to be manipulated by her father ©.

If you want to do the same with fear, you could say “Fear (as SOC) leads to what conflict?” Or “An unchosen item leads to fear”. No wrong answer.

The only thing is to make sure whatever you use as conflict (“manipulation” or “fear” or otherwise) is treated as the conflict in your story and that it stems from the source of conflict.

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#18

Also don’t forget that since the MC and IC players both have roles in the OS also, it can be difficult sometimes to know whether you’re talking about the MC, IC, and OS throughlines. (Those summaries I mentioned can help a lot.)

And for a particular throughline it’s possible for both fear and trust to be sources of conflict, kind of different “zoom levels” of the conflict. Trust would be the most zoomed-in level (Problem level) while fear (Mind / Fixed Attitude) would be the most zoomed out (Domain). Note, fear can also be at the Concern level (deep subconscious fear = Subconscious aka Innermost Desires; being nervous/jittery = Preconscious aka Impulsive Responses, etc.).

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#19

That’s something else I was going to point to. Preconscious/impulsive response. One of the ways I sort of dumb Preconscious and Subconscious down for myself is to think of Sub as how one feels without thinking about it, and Pre as how one acts without thinking about it. That said, I’m not sure how your goal relates to Precoscious. If I’m understanding it, it almost seems like they are trying to Concieve that they are free from tyranny.

A goal of Preconscious would maybe be to remain calm about something, or to act spontaneously or inappropriately while under tyranny. That Preconscious act might then be the story outcome of Success and everybody feels a Judment of Good now that they see that they can be that way, or judge it as bad when they are all brutally murdered by the tyrant for that reaction.

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#20

While I think this is possible, I think it’s difficult, because, as @mlucas said, it’s hart to tell whether your player is operating in the MC, IC, or OS throughlines.

From a quick search on Subtext, there’s not a lot stories with that arrangement. A couple of interesting ones though are The Sound of Music and Zootopia. Each of these deal with cultures of prejudice (Mind). As for Preconscious, Zootopia is literally all about “animal instincts” while The Sound of Music “Nazi” storyform is about escaping “violent knee-jerk responses”.

But Preconscious can also be being numb, drunk, drugged, or out of your faculties.

Not sure if that helps you.

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