Group online analysis of A Man For All Seasons

analysis
#101

I agree with Stop… and I take back my initial thought that the OS was Physics. A Growth of Stop puts the OS in Manipulation (if we choose Fixed Attitude for More’s MC throughline).

I think Manipulation fits well for the OS. This gives us a more refined summary of the OS, since just about everyone is trying to manipulate More into “bending to the marriage.” Nearly everyone else has already bent to it.

So we might say that the OS is “Manipulating dissenters into bending to the marriage.”

Choosing an OS Domain of Situation, with respect to our other choices, would put More in Manipulation, but it doesn’t really feel (to me) like More is trying to manipulate anyone. He’s just made up his mind and is sticking with his convictions.

#102

Just as a side note, I do still agree with Failure/Good as the O/J… But this story still feels like a Tragedy in many respects. After all, a man is put to death for no greater crime than refusing to put his signature (endorsement) on a piece of parchment. Maybe we need to call it a “Tragic Personal Triumph?”

This sort of solidifies my belief that the MC throughline is Fixed Attitude. He’s so resolved in his convictions that he’s not even willing to sign an agreement to save his own life. Conceivably he could just sign to make everyone happy and still go on believing what he believes.

Not sure if this is mentioned anywhere in the Theory, but Steadfast and (Situation or Mind) seem to go very well together, because all 3 are fixed states, which is why this particular story is so powerful. The same might be said for Change MC’s in Physics or Psychology. Change is all about leaping to a new conclusion (a process).

#103

I think Prish’s suggestion of Situation for Overall Story Throughline is very thought-provoking. On the surface, one might see this as a story about “King Henry VIII putting everyone into a tough situation”.

But I don’t think they’re in a “stuck state” because if you look at it, the state (situation) keeps changing throughout the film. First it’s about needing to pressure the Pope into granting an annulment. Next it’s about the King pressuring people, especially his new Chancellor, to support his divorce. Then it’s about needing to accept the King as head of the new Church of England. Next about having to take an Oath, and being convicted of treason for not taking the Oath. You could see all of those as individual states/situations but they’re all very different, so the overall story is never ‘stuck’ in one, and conflict doesn’t end by changing the situation. What’s really problematic is the ongoing process of coercion, of ‘applying pressure’. That’s what needs to stop for the conflict to end.

EDIT: So I still think Manipulation (Psychology) works best for OS.

#104

I agree, Mike @mlucas. In fact, your earlier argument for Manipulation as the OS Throughline is what began to sway me from my initial guess of Physics.

I also agree that Prish’s suggestion of Situation is thought-provoking. However, choosing Situation for the OS shifts the other throughlines in a way that doesn’t seem to line up with what we’ve already determined about the story.

So I’m happy with Manipulation for the OS as well. Does anyone else have some thoughts on this, or are we ready to move forward some more?

#105

I like Manipulation for the OS. I also think MC Growth is Stop: as a Steadfast character, Thomas More is waiting for everyone to stop pestering him about his opinions, and mistakenly believes at several points that he’ll be left alone if he just stays quiet.

With this in mind, here’s how the throughlines currently fall:

  • OVERALL STORY: Bending to the Marriage - Manipulation
  • MAIN CHARACTER: Thomas More - Fixed Attitude
  • INFL. CHARACTER: Duke of Norfolk (and others?) - Situation
  • RELATIONSHIP: Dissolving Friendship - Activity

Does this hold up to scrutiny? As has been voiced, it won’t be too hard to justify the MC Throughline, but the Influence and Relationship domains might be trickier. Thoughts?

#106

I agree with Stop for the reasons you mentioned. Those Throughlines match what I had been thinking after pegging OS as Manipulation, so that’s a good sign!

For the RS Throughline, I like Activity because I thought I saw signs of Understanding in the relationship between More and Norfolk (and others) – mostly trying to understand Thomas More’s reasoning, or More trying to help others understand. (Not to say I’m confident Understanding is the RS Concern; it might be just a Signpost I noticed.) There was also some Doing (questioning and being questioned, governing, fist-fighting) and Obtaining (losing a friend) in there and probably Learning as well (studying each other? EDIT: or maybe the questioning and being questioned comes under here).

Situation works for Norfolk as IC too; he’s stuck “being a noble”, and having to support his King. (“Those like Norfolk follow me because I wear the crown,” says King Henry at one point.) And this situation is a source of conflict for him, mostly because he happens to have a friend that the King is treating poorly.

#107

But I think More’s greatest loyalty, determination, and steadfastness is to defend the law. I think that is what he gave up his life for. Just saying.

#108

Or could be a Triumph because he defended the law? There is a reason that his story still resonates 500 years later.

#109

Maybe stop defending the law?

#110

A third factor figuring into the “feel” of the story is that More and Norfolk’s friendship falls apart. More ends the story at peace, but the overall story is unresolved and the relationship has disintegrated. That’s two out of three downers, lending to the film’s ‘tragic’ feel, as you say.

#111

Norfolk’s Situation as a high noble makes sense, but I’d like to dig deeper - can we describe how Norfolk’s problematic situation challenges More’s resolve? If there are specific lines or scenes, even better.

Also, without yet diving into Concerns, can we identify problematic Activity that puts strain on More and Norfolk’s friendship?

#112

Do you mean this in regard to the Relationship Story (what More and Norfolk fight over), or to More’s Growth (Stop vs Start)?

#113

But is it tragic because More egged Norfolk on, purposely, so Norfolk would strike him and walk away from the friendship? Who knows what happened in real history, but that is the story’s play on it. Maybe, he knew Norfolk was doing what he felt was right.

#114

I was thinking the start or stop resolve. How would that come into play with IC Norfolk? I guess he could be a start because the one thing he need to do was to start lobbying.

#116

I was just confused whether, “Maybe stop defending the law?” was referring to troubles in the Relationship Story, or Thomas More’s MC Growth: Stop. But I understand what you were talking about now!

#117

Does “raising bulldogs (of excellent pedigree)” count as Activity?

Also, what about “worshipping God”? It’s not really shown directly, but More says:

You and your class have given in, as you rightly call it…
…'cause this country’s religion means nothing to you at all.
…
The nobility of England would have snored through the Sermon on the Mount!
But you’ll labour like scholars over a bulldog’s pedigree.

So they’re at odds about how to worship. Thomas believes worshiping God must come from the core of you, and he accuses Norfolk of only worshiping for appearances, or to serve his own “appetites”:

I will not give in, because I oppose it.
Not my pride, not my spleen, nor any other of my appetites, but I do, l.

Is there, in the midst of all this muscle, no sinew that serves no appetite…of Norfolk’s, but is just Norfolk?

[Man, the other actors must have been annoyed at how many good lines Paul Scofield got. :slight_smile: ]

Meanwhile Norfolk just thinks he’s being mean and too judgmental about the whole thing (“You can be cruel when you want, but I’ve always known that.”).

#118

For challenging More’s resolve, it never seems that he really wavers, but he ends up having to do things that he doesn’t want to, he has to make sacrifices – such as his friendship with Norfolk itself. So the challenge or growth of resolve is like “happily Steadfast” to “sad Steadfast”. I think it is Norfolk’s Situation that directly causes this.

NORFOLK: We’re supposed to be the proud ones, the arrogant ones, we’ve all given in.
Why must you stand out? Goddammit man! It’s disproportionate!

THOMAS: You’ll break my heart.
No one is safe, Howard, and you have a son.
We’ll end our friendship now.

NORFOLK: For friendship’s sake?

THOMAS: Yes.

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#119

I agree with you, of course, but doesn’t it grow from Norfolk to his family’s situation due to his choice/resolve?

#120

Prish, do you mean More’s family’s situation also affects his resolve in a similar manner? If so, I agree with you, which might be a sign that IC is handed off to someone like More’s wife. But I think to make things simpler for the analysis we were sort of ignoring the IC hand-offs for now and just focusing on the clearest IC – Norfolk.

Still, I definitely like what you are getting at. Something made me shed a tear during the scene with Meg and his wife in the prison cell. -sniff- :joy:

#121

Yes, there does seem to be a progression.