Novelist trying to decide whether to purchase the software or not

Hi there,

So glad this community exists! I’ve been playing around with the DSE software, getting to grips with the theory, bought the book and watching whatever youtube videos are available before deciding to purchase. One thing though is that I’m already spending a lot of time simply learning the process of this software and the terminology without having written much of anything this past week. I’m happy to sacrifice the time as long as I have a very good story at the end :slight_smile:

I have a few questions that I’m hoping someone will be able to answer.

I have watched 2 of the user group videos on youtube and while that demonstrates the breakdown of stories, I have yet to see anything that builds up a story. Is there a video available that builds up a story in conjunction with the usage of the software?

My second question is about what to do after the building is complete. Is there an example of how to apply this structure in a story? Scenes and chapter breakdown?

I’d hate to get to the end of this story building process, only to realise that the structure just sits there in the program with very little pointers on where to place it in story.

As an example, a lot of novelists here might be familiar with the KM Weiland’s Structure your Novel. It provides plot points along the way to a complete structure. Does DSE succinctly tie the whole structure together you’ve just created and lay it out in a diagram or in plot points or some fashion that is usuable?

Thanks in advance!!

Most of Dramatica doesn’t deal directly with what you would think of as “plot”, so there isn’t much that would be similar to a plot point list or diagram. But there is the Plot Sequence Report (aka PSR), which is pretty cool. Give that a try and see what you think.

Thanks to @bobRaskoph there is also a way to print your whole storyform, including the Plot Sequence Report, in a nice pretty format. Here’s an example on my blog, which includes the link to Bob’s tool.

Dramatica really deals with what you’d consider:

  • conflict, especially the sources of conflict
  • character motivations (what truly drives the characters; what makes them struggle; what do they focus on and think needs to be solved or at least attended to; how do they respond)
  • ways of approaching conflict
  • how a story’s difficulties are truly resolved
  • how a story ends (triumph vs. tragedy vs. two types of bittersweet)
  • the main character’s struggles and how they relate to the overall story
  • how another character or characters influence the main character to change his perspective
  • the one relationship that is at the heart of the story
  • how theme relates to conflict

Sorry, I meant that to be just a few bullet points. :slight_smile:

EDIT: be careful with KM Weiland’s stuff. I believe her structure can work well, but doesn’t fit all story ideas, and it can really mess you up to try and shoehorn your story into her structure. (That said, I think she does have a lot of good advice, as long as you’re careful in applying it.)

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Hey Anne,

I tend to think of Dramatica as a really really good planning tool.

I don’t know if you do things like write out character bios, or write journals in their voice, or anything before you write, but if you do… do you concern yourself with where that’s going to show up in the plot? Or does it just deeper your story and make it a story worth telling?

Dramatica is a bit like that, though it does offer a lot more. What it doesn’t offer is a neat shortcut to a structure for your novel.

I don’t know much about KM Weiland (though I know she doesn’t understand Dramatica). But most people who offer up structures tend to get to these structures by reducing lots of stories down to beats, and taking the advice of others who have reduced structures down to beats. Dramatica is a whole different beast, that built is build upwards from understanding what motivates people and how that motivation paints their view of the problems around them.

While most people think of structure as a way to organize scenes – pigeon holes to put scenes in. I’m not slamming this approach. Nevertheless, I would not really categorize Dramatica this way. It is more of a way to understand the conflict beneath those scenes to make sure they are clear and constantly progressing towards a satisfying end for your story.

I never found much success with theories that worked by “reducing down”. There’s no understanding in them, and no way to gain understanding from them. They’re like wearing a brace – they keep you propped up, but your muscles atrophy.

I think you’ll like Dramatica if you stick with it, but you will sacrifice a lot of time before it starts to pay off.

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I’ll play around with the PRS, thanks for highlighting that. Also, I look forward to reading through you blog!

I like that explanation of Dramatica’s purpose. Thank you. I’ll bear that in mind as I move forward.

How much time did it take you to get to grips with the program before you started using it to write a story?

I got into historical fiction writing, tours, etc
And I am going to write the books someday, or let’s say complete them. It’s such a drag when your historical situations resonate in ways you don’t want it to with current events so I’m kind of wandering into screenwriting. I’m a hobbyist here.

To answer your question, getting dramatica was one of the top 10 decisions I’ve made in my life. It is fantastic! It gently gets your mind to see stories as a whole, and whatever you understand from the theory you can write some from that point, i.e. someone gave an example on this list of how you just need a few points in an arc and you can fill in a whole circle.

Another thing that’s really great about the program is that you can put a story aside…just write your thoughts in different parts of the software, just write what you think Tinker here Tinker there and you can come back to it ten years later and it’s as though you just walked away from this fresh as the day you stopped typing.

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For what it’s worth, I have a familiarity with both Dramatica and K.M. Weiland’s Structuring Your Novel/Outlining Your Novel/Character Arcs books (though I wouldn’t consider myself an expert on either.)

My own experience (which I think mirrors what others have said here), is that story development models tend to break into two distinct types: what you could call narrative progressions and Dramatica.

Narrative progressions include K.M. Weiland’s work, Save The Cat, Hero’s Journey (in all its many forms), Jeffrey Schecter’s “My Story Can Beat Up Your Story” and a host of others. If you’re looking for a roadmap to ensure you get to a novel that hits not just the “beats” but the sense of pace and progression that’s found in most commercial fiction, then having a sense of the big moments are that you’re building towards can be reassuring.

Dramatica is unique in its approach and I don’t think there’s anything else out there that works the way it does. The focus, as has been said, is on sources of conflict. Dramatica will lead you to a set of coherent viewpoints on those conflicts and provides a means to go in many different non-traditional directions while still arriving at a satisfying story.

The disadvantage of the narrative progression roadmaps is that, well, you’ll learn them very quickly and in a way they stop being useful because the concepts take potentially very complex things (like all the different possible ways in which we might feel as if the story cannot possibly continue, that everything has failed) and toss it into a term like, “Death” or “All Is Lost”. Sure, it’s still true, but it doesn’t cause my brain to generate new and interesting ideas.

You never quite hit the end with Dramatica (or even the end of the beginning, actually, which is what makes it so god-damned hard), so while it is perpetually frustrating, it does give you more avenues to come up with new ideas – your ideas – which is the point of the creative process.

Personally, I’ve reached the stage where my brain alternates between the two models. Sometimes I need that concreteness of thinking in terms of a set of stages that a book goes through, and sometimes I need to think in terms like “Well, is this really a Situation? Or a Fixed Attitude?” There really are times where you want to think not as if you’re trying to reach some conclusion, but rather make sure you’ve explored all the facets of the sources and points of view on the conflicts in your story. Dramatica has that sense of completeness to its model.

I think it’s worth pointing out that K.M. Weiland is in many ways the best of the people out there writing in terms of roadmap models. She’s smart, she gives tons and tons of good information away for free all the time, and she goes beyond just structure with some good ideas on character arcs and such. She’s given out things like her entire (massive) outline for one of her own novels as well as tons of videos and such. That makes it easier to match the methodology she describes with an example of something that was actually written using it. That’s surprisingly hard to find for any other models

I’ve also found Schecter’s book really helpful at points where I just needed to force myself to break out of a spiral of confusion in my writing.

I’ve also gotten lots of benefit from Dramatica, and several of my published novels were written at least in part using the storyform that the software helped me identify. I’ve found @jhull a really valuable resource to consult with when trying to both find the storyform and figure out how to apply it. I’m so grateful that I periodically try to drive him insane by posting contrary interpretations of storyforms here (screw you, Jim! Captain America is the MC of Civil War!)

Probably one final thing worth mentioning is that it’s not a good idea to blend the two at any one time. In other words, don’t try to hybridize a model. Dramatica relies unbelievably heavily on its user community to help make sense of it – there just isn’t a book for novelists on Dramatica that’s sufficiently user-friendly to wrap your head around it. So if you want to jump into the deep end with Dramatica, just do it. Let go of everything else – and that includes all the habits and thought patterns that have helped you up until now – and let the crazy thing take over for a while. A friend of mine did that – forcing himself to go through literally every part of the Story Guide (which is insane) – and at the end his book changed completely from where it had started and was ten times better.

Good luck!

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There is no clean answer to this question.

It started to help me immediately, even though I didn’t really understand everything. Then it hobbled me as I misapplied nearly everything at every turn. Then it started to make sense more, and as @decastell said, you never really get to the end. I continue to make leaps forward in my storytelling, and can see things that never would have landed if I didn’t know Dramatica.

Also, this forum didn’t exist. Dramatica now has many people giving good advice.

To that end, listen to @decastell: abandon everything else. Not kind of. Completely. It will only hold up your understanding. Eventually, you can bring it back.

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I believe the only thing the demo doesn’t let you do is save or print. So if you’ve used the demo, you should have a good idea of what the software offers. That said, i’d definitely suggest going ahead and making the purchase. I don’t know if there are any discount codes available at the moment, but check Storymind.com for some. (friendly suggestion: if you find more than one code available, try using them all at once)

It would be awesome to have an example of a storyform being turned into a story, but I have yet to see anything like that. There’s just so many ways to do it, though. Dramatica doesn’t really trap your story into a specific presentation the way something like Save the Cat does. (actually, technically, the software supposedly does generate enough information to print out a several hundred pages report detailing a very specific order for everything to be explored, but it’s unavailable for good reasons). I’d suggest that something like Save the Cat “just sits there” waiting to be filled in while Dramatica is as malleable as you want/need it to be. With the Sign Posts and Journeys, you should have everything in the story in chronological order and you are free to unravel it however you please. Is there a specific question you have about turning a Dramatica storyform into a story? I know you’d find lots of good answer on this board.

I’ve been under the impression that you could probably take story information from Dramatica and use it another storytelling structure, like Save the Cat or, presumably, Weiland (i’m not familiar with her work, more on this at the end). But @decastell s comment above seems to warn against it. And for good reason. Why take something as comprehensive and meaningful as Dramatica and cram it into a model that says “you need this beat specifically on this page because lots of movies have this beat on that page” with little or no further explanation?


This is beside the point, but my experience with Weiland began when I stumbled across her article about the eight and a half archetypes to use where she lists Dramatica’s eight archetypes and then adds The Love Interest as an additional half archetype. That article proves @MWollaeger 's statement that she doesn’t understand Dramatica (that probably sounds insulting, but it’s not meant to be, I barely understand Dramatica myself). I decided that was pretty much where my experience with Weiland would end. One of the biggest downsides about Dramatica is that, after I started getting the basics of it, I was no longer entertained by reading the advice of any other story guru because Dramatica is just so much more comprehensive and explanatory.

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Hey Anne,

Welcome! I’m a fellow novelist and dramatica user. You’ve already gotten some great responses, but I wanted to throw in my two cents:

A. Dramatica is by far the most powerful theory of story I have ever come across, bar none. I don’t mean to evangelize; Dramatica is a tool, not a Bible. But it’s a damn-useful one, if you know what you’re doing with it.

As for how Dramatica compares to K.M Weiland’s work (with which I am also familiar- I own a number of her books and have found them very helpful), it’s kind of like comparing some basic photo editor to Photoshop, or Garageband to Logic Studio (if you’re a musician). One is much easier to grasp and apply to your work, the other will require some serious study to get any real use out of it. But if you’re willing to put the time in, you’ll find that there’s very little about story-telling that studying Dramatica can’t help you with.

B. Yes, Dramatica does provide a diagram of sorts to plot your novel-- the PSR, as many people have mentioned, BUT it takes quite a bit of knowledge to use it well. You really have to familiarize yourself with the variations/elements and what they mean, including how they relate to one another. My recommendation is to search for “PSR” on this website and read through every discussion thread you find on the topic. That’s what I did!

C. Have you read through the entire theory book? If not, you can download a copy for free here:

You can learn a LOT of tremendously useful concepts from that book that will make any story you write stronger, no outlay for software needed. Just understanding the nature of the four throughlines in any story and WHY they matter made an incalculable difference in my own writing journey, perfectly explaining why stories I’d tried to write in the past had always “lost their magic” somewhere along the way, because I’d inadvertently abandoned one of the throughlines.

With that said, I’d benchmark it at six months of serious study before you’re can use the software/theory to write better novels. There’s just so much to wrap your head around, it’s going to take a long time for stuff to sink in. But once it does, there’s no going back, and your writing life is forever changed.

Best of luck!

Audrey

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I am just chiming in because nobody mentioned the story embroidery session. Yes, there are videos/podcast where dramatica user group builds a complete story from a scratch using a single storyform. Search for “story embroidery.”
Contributors gets their turn to encode each story points round-robin style. Pretty solid story is created in just under 2 hours or so. Check the videos out. It will help out a lot with your encoding process.

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There is also the one that @mlucas, @Gregolas, @Prish and I did. It’s incomplete but at least shows the process. We really should finish that.

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Thank you very much for sharing your experiences as writers and novelists. It really does help me put in place where Dramatica could fit in my writing life. You’ve pointed at many things now to look into. Story embroidery, the PSR and look at read Hull site and other threads here and so on. Much to do!

I feel like I’ve progressed so much in my understanding since then. It really would be interesting to go finish it now, or maybe pick a section and try to turn it into a scene or something.

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But don’t stop writing to do it!

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To address the question of “how can you use dramatica for prospective writing rather than retrospective analysis,” there are many useful ways, but my most common process is:

  1. What do I have? What do I feel strongly about? This could be anything from any throughline. It could be a concern, issue, problem, flaw, etc. It could be an outcome, judgment, resolve, etc. It could be any combo.
  2. I use this “must have” info in dramatica to generate candidate storyforms.
  3. I pick one of the storyforms that sounds exciting. It might end up being something via development & further exciting me or it might die a death in development hell.
  4. For a given storyform, I inspect the details in all the throughlines, the signposts, the plot sequence report, etc and develop these. Best case, this storyform provides me with exciting insights & opens doors/options and survives into the final story. Worst case, I loop back to previous steps.

Short answer, my essential review of dramatica is: given the difficult problems of objectively assessing your story and the related difficulty that humans have of changing perspectives, dramatica offers the ability to look at your story form several different perspectives which has the practical benefit of exposing holes, contradictions, and distractions in your story.

Sure, you could argue that the marginal utility of going from nothing to dramatica demo is arguably larger than the marginal utility of going from demo to paid version. But I’d pay 10 times the amount for what I’ve gotten out of it. So, if it was a system of, “pay what you will,” I’d pay more much than the sticker price out of gratitude and its value to me. This is not a paid advert. One option is use the hell out of the demo, and if you come to value it at or above the sticker price, then pay at that point.

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I’d like to put a plug in here for @jhull’s free course (on his website) and Armando Saldaña-Mora book Dramatica for Screenwriters as two ways to start applying the theory to building a story right away. I too am a novelist, not a screenwriter, but the vast majority of Armando’s book is not screenwriter specific and the parts that are are useful for a novelist too (in my opinion). The theory book is great and necessary but it’s drinking from a firehose and then you still have to spend hours on this forum and Narrative First to really start to understand it.

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Hello, whitepaws, and welcome.

I’m usually quiet on these forums, and you’ve already received quite a few answers. However, I thought I’d add some of my experience, and hopefully provide something useful, too. (Especially since I’m currently writing my first novel using Dramatica)


When I started with the theory, I shared your concern, if only because of how cold Dramatica seemed at first. I was worried that the theory and program would say a lot about my story, but that I wouldn’t be able to apply it, so I spent a great deal of time experimenting with the demo, the book, etc.

It turned out that Jim’s website, Narrative First, helped diminish this feeling. The “Playground Exercises” described there became the clincher. With those, application of the theory to my story, and any other story I might write, became clear. (Wish I had a link for these…)

Now, in reference to what to do after the building portion is complete: That’s actually where I’m at now with my own story. The PSR, which was mentioned, has been an invaluable tool, but so has the Theme Browser, especially since they provide different views of the story. I’d say I’ve found these the most useful, but I suspect everything in Dramatica has potential. I just haven’t gotten around to a lot of it, yet… There’s so much to explore.

What it comes down to, though, of course, is what you utility you can receive from it. If you aren’t sure how useful it could be, experiment and try using it for something simple. See how the application of the theory works for you. The only caveat that I would mention in this vein is that the wrong story form can be extraordinarily difficult to work with, but once you have the right one, you’d be amazed at what Dramatica knows. (If it works, it works.)


I guess, what I’m saying is this: If you find it’s worth it, then splurge. If not, then may you at least receive some dividends in your experiments that will improve your writing. Good Luck!

Full Disclosure
I actually tried to use concepts from Dramatica to write this post.
Hopefully, I did so correctly. (Ever the student keeps learning.)

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I’ve got you covered: https://narrativefirst.com/articles/series/a-playground-for-writers

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Hi everyone,

I bit the bullet and purchased it. There’s a great Black Friday sale going on at Writer’s store which made it particularly attractive.

Thank you for responding with your experiences of how you put Dramatica to use. I’ll be looking at the screenwriter book @Lakis mentioned and the playground exercises @Hunter mentioned (thank you for the link @RailwayAdventurer !). The objectivity aspect is certainly a strong point. My last novel took a lot longer to finish than I would’ve liked because I was quite emotionally connected, thus making it hard to see the wood for the trees.

I’ll be seeing many of you here in the forum.

:slight_smile:

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