Has anyone watched this? It’s animated musical action, and seems pretty popular on Netflix … after watching it on her own, my 15-year-old made me and my wife watch it with her. It was fantastic, I definitely recommend it! (She’s now watched it three times, having made her friends watch it at a sleepover.) The music is tearing up the charts apparently, too.
I found a candidate storyform fairly easily, but wondering if others agree.
Storyform hidden -- you should probably watch it first!
(temporarily removed so as not to unduly influence group analysis)
I’m glad you liked it – was pretty sure you would. My daughter has watched it 5 times now BTW, and I heard it’s now the most-watched Netflix animation of all time. Plus the song Golden from the soundtrack is currently #1 in the world on Spotify! We heard it on the radio yesterday. Crazy.
OS: The war between the Demon Hunters and the demons, with Huntr/x getting close to the “Golden Honmoon” (sealing demons off forever) vs. Gwi-Ma (fire demon lord) and Jinu’s (Saja Boys lead) plot to steal fans and souls and thereby wreck the Honmoon.
MC: Huntr/x lead vocalist Rumi, a demon hunter who is secretly part demon, and has been taught to hide her demon marks/heritage her whole life. Even from her best friends!
IC: Jinu, a demon who regrets his past choices, and wants to be free of the guilt and shame that Gwi-Ma uses to enslave him.
RS 1: enemies to romantic allies (Rumi and Jinu)
There might be an RS 2 with the Huntr/x team, but I’m having trouble thinking how the relationship changes. (Not sure you can say teammates to friends because they were friends to start, though they do become way more open with each other.) Maybe we can leave this for now?
Yes! All that sounds really great, and they did a GREAT job of making this so explicit - familiar (you and i are both alike) but different enough to feel unique and fresh.
Since it might be just you and me from here on - we can blast through the rest of the Dynamics?
MC Growth
MC Approach
MC Problem-solving Style
Story Driver
Story Limit
Story Outcome
Story Judgment
MC Growth: ? (would rather talk about this in conjunction with Domains)
MC Approach: Be-er. I’m open to alternate opinions here but it seems like pretending you’re shy about your body so as never to join your friends in their favorite pastime in order to hide your demon scars, is a Be-er approach. Similarly with “my voice is fine, I just need water” etc.
MC Problem-solving Style: I went with Linear because the story felt like she was quite linear in terms of “if I can just get the Golden Honmoon, then my scars will be gone and everything will be fine”. A specific target of something to be achieved rather than a holistic way of constantly adapting and balancing things.
Story Driver: I sort of want to leave this one for you as the exact events and their timing are a bit fuzzy in my memory, but I’m pretty sure it’s Action. Rumi loses her voice – definitely an action. The Saja boys appearance and tearing up the charts, also an action. Finally, Rumi’s singing at the end, leading to the final Driver of Jinu’s sacrifice and Huntr/x reuniting to defeat the demons.
Story Limit: Optionlock
Story Outcome: Success. They didn’t achieve the Golden Honmoon but I don’t think that was the Goal – thematically it was clearly “going too far”, sealing off the world from the demons when the story showed the virtue of accepting your own flaws aka “demons”. (We need to talk about the Goal, whether it was defeating Gwi-Ma’s plan or something more esoteric!)
Story Judgment: Definitely Good. Jinu’s sacrifice was sad but more of Cost than a source of bitterness, and the story ends on a happy, triumphant note.
We can hold off on Growth and Approach for Domains…and yes! I would agree with all of the others. The Linear examples are quite good.
I feel like the Goal might be something more closer to the “taking control of your life” type Goal that is not as explicit as defeating the bad guy, but falls into the place. (Owning your life, your way of doing things, etc.)
And it has to be Action driven, right? Jinu’s final sacrifice, reveal of who she is, Jinu covering her up in the bathhouse battle.
Oooh, yes! Or even “owning your music” lol, with music representing your true self. (Works really well with that last song, the broken glass metaphor: what-it-sounds-like-lyrics.)
For Domains, I was thinking OS Physics (warring against demons, playing music and musical battles, establishing and tearing down the Honmoon).
MC as a Be-er would then be Mind – her real problem is not the external fact of her demon marks and heritage, but her fixed opinion about it (shame and self-loathing, even to the point of becoming suicidal).
Oh, should we have done Resolve already? Definitely Changed! You only have to look at the lyrics linked above to see this, ah hell I can’t help quoting:
I broke into a million pieces, and I can’t go back
But now I’m seeing all the beauty in the broken glass
The scars are part of me, darkness and harmony
My voice without the lies, this is what it sounds like
IC Universe for Jinu is perfectly simple and clear: he’s a demon! Most importantly, his influence on Rumi comes from being a demon who has retained enough humanity that she has empathy for his pain, and he becomes a kind of mirror for her.
RS Psychology: a relationship that is based on (and can only really exist because of) new ways of thinking about demon-human interactions.
Next, Concerns – I was leaning bottom left, which I’m even more confident of because of your “owning your life” ideas for the Goal (Obtaining)! (But I’ll wait to see what you think before trying to illustrate anything.)
P.S. This is fun – I missed these Discuss discussions!
Oh yeah, I was thinking hard about those questions when I first tried to figure out the storyform!
This is interesting. I think as a person he would still have the problem of having betrayed his family (i.e. guilt). BUT this wouldn’t have any more influence on Rumi than any random stranger who has past regrets. He needs to BE a demon to influence Rumi – that’s what makes it a problem for her, that it’s impossible to reconcile his being a demon with her worldview.
That said, the above paragraph is me trying hard to argue for IC Universe. Perhaps the simpler answer is just to say yes, he would still regret betraying his family, and hate himself because of it. And maybe it’s the humanity of this shame & self-loathing that influences Rumi. (What makes all of this tricky is that clearly the combination of being a demon and having humanity influences Rumi – but which one of those is the IC domain? Well, it does seem like you’d have to take away his human regrets to get rid of his problem…)
This question is again tricky, but now I think the answer is quite possibly no. You could try to say that lacking demon heritage, Rumi might still be an MC who’s ashamed of her own flaws. But they never really showed that – never gave other examples besides the demon stuff.
Huh. So I think now I would lean MC Universe, IC Mind, despite the initial assumption of Be-er. Maybe the Be-er behavior is not her first choice, just something she’s forced into – and she does try pretty hard for the Golden Honmoon as a way of erasing her demon marks, which is a Do-er thing. (Also, Delay/Choice/Openness/Preconception are pretty fantastic for Rumi, assuming we go bottom left.)
(It wasn’t easy for me to change my mind on this but luckily I had a D&D session in between first trying to argue the other way and now! )
I would agree with MC Domain in Universe and IC Domain in Mind. His biggest problem is that he wants to get rid of those memories, and hers is hiding her patterns from everyone else. The You and I aspect is so well done, that it can be difficult to see the source of conflict in each. And tbh, smarty-pants Narrova thought the MC was in Mind too so…
And I would agree that it’s in the lower left “Destinations” quadrant – the only thing is which Element is which…
My original thought was a Problem → Solution arc of Consider → Reconsider for both MC and OS. I still think that is reasonably strong (considering demons despicable, considering my demon heritage shameful; reconsidering our flaws as strengths). Those would be the Pivotal Elements as well, which I think works great for Rumi and Jinu.
With the new Domain arrangement, this would give a Problem/Motivation of Control for Jinu, which throws me a bit. But I guess it could be that he is under the control of, i.e. enslaved by, Gwi-Ma? And wants to break free of those shackles built of his own shame?
This also gives Openness for Rumi, which is pretty cool in terms of hiding her demon marks and her true self. I’m not entirely sure about the Faith/Disbelief Focus & Direction though…
The other really interesting option is Oppose → Support. Especially when you think about some of the really hard-hitting illustrations for Oppose like “denying something” “being anti-something”, “confronting something”. I feel like Oppose might work better for the antagonists than Consider, too – they’re opposing the Honmoon, and certainly the Saja Boys are providing some opposition for Huntr/x and their popularity!
I need to think on this a bit more, grabbing lunch now… (feel free to share any thoughts you have on Elements too!)
Some more benefits of Oppose as OS & MC Problem (and resulting storyform):
There’s a lot of OS conflict stemming from the girls disagreeing with each other about their song choices and performances (is it too hateful to demons? etc.)
Attitude (about demons) makes a great OS Issue!
I don’t recall super well but I think Jinu does a lot of Support in the OS (his Pivotal), the way he talks to Huntr/x & fans & media, the way he deals with Gwi-ma.
Feeling as RS Condition seems spot on (like, feeling for each other, sharing each other’s pain).
Hinder/Help as OS Focus/Response. “your throat is bad, let’s get you some tea”, messing with the group, helping the enemy…
I like Support as Solution too – not just reconsidering your flaws but talking them up, complimenting them, acknowledging their beauty. Rumi supporting Jinu about his pain, kind of a shoulder to cry on. And the girls totally supporting each other in every way.
IC Problem of Temptation, he’s tempting her with his charm & good looks initially, then tempting her to embrace her demon side, while fighting the temptation to do what Gwi-Ma wants. (and tempting all the fans to be his Soda Pop lol )
MC Unique Ability of Openness and Critical Flaw of Denial? I mean…
Hmm. I think I overlooked Avoid/Pursuit to some degree, because (to quote you in another thread) I find those elements a little boring.
I do really like Feeling for the IC Problem/Motivation – he impacts her because she feels for him, he has a heart and therefore some humanity, despite being a demon. And Avoid could work for the Honmoon itself (stopping the demons from coming to Earth), and for the demons trying to avoid the completion of the Golden Honmoon. RS Temptation → Conscience is also great.
I originally preferred Attitude for OS Issue. But Self Interest works in terms of everyone wanting to do things their own way, and for the dramatic tension around the Honmoon (demon hunters wanting what’s best for them and humanity = Honmoon, demons wanting no Honmoon).
Most importantly, Rumi definitely has that Simba-like vibe of the true Antagonist of the story. And, the MC Unique Ability (openness re: true self) & Critical Flaw (denial of heritage) & Benchmark (progress of her demon marks) remain the same, so that’s a bonus. I don’t think I mentioned this earlier, but the MC Issue of Delay (same as Oppose storyform) could be how she’s waited her whole life for the Golden Honmoon – constantly putting off being her true self to some hoped-for future date.
Oh, and the Pivotal Elements of Avoid for Rumi (obvious) and Pursuit for Jinu (pursuing a solution, pursuing Rumi … I think the cat/bird/hat messenger is the perfect proxy for this) work very well.
Note this would match Lion King and Black Panther, not Pitch Perfect – see my comment in the other thread.
EDIT: the one thing I’m not sure about is Pursuit as the MC and especially OS Solutions. It would help if we could come up with some really good encodings. “Grabbing your demon heritage by the horns” feels like Pursuit and works decently for MC, but what about OS? “Hunting down your enemies” is something they were doing from the very beginning.
Pursuit as OS solution seems a lot clearer in Pitch Perfect, Lion King, and Collateral –but obvious isn’t necessarily “better”, we just need something that fits. Pursuing friendship?
I agree. It’s really hard to avoid any personal bias when it comes to pulling out storyforms, but I think this one works the best. I did look at the Oppose/Support one but this would be a place where the Pivotal Elements really come into play and make everything work:
– Avoid (Rumi) - delaying, putting off as a means of solving an issue
– Pursuit (Jinu) - driving forward, facing problems head-on, (cat-bird-hat messenger is a GREAT proxy, didn’t even think of that!)
So, to us it may be a “boring” Storyform, but apparently it seems to hit well with audiences (or it’s just that the storytellers are familiar with it enough that they can competently encode it without too much problem).
For me, it’s not so much that the whole storyform is boring, just the Pursuit/Avoid elements to a degree. I still think Lion King, Pitch Perfect, Terminator, E.T. etc. have pretty cool stories & structures!
Part of the reason I avoided Pursuit/Avoid is because the movie and its story felt so fresh – but it could be they just managed to capture this structure in a new and compelling way. i.e. freshness at the encoding and storytelling levels. Rumi’s less whiny than Simba and T’Challa because she’s avoiding these horrifying demon marks rather than kingship.
Did you have any ideas on the OS Solution of Pursuit? Maybe it’s something like “facing your enemies head-on” along with “pursuing the song you were always meant to sing”? The latter has that real “going for it” feeling of Pursuit.
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