Narrova vs. Storyform Builder / Invalid Story Points

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1

Hi all,

I think this is more a technical issue than a question concerning Dramatica Theory. What surprises me is that nobody seems to encounter similar problems at least so far Narrova searched the community (later more to its actions). Maybe the german guy is the problem kid again.

What I encountered is that Narrova isn’t always in sync with Dramatica Theory. In my case it picked an RS Concern which wasn’t that wasn’t conform with the Theory. And we discussed at length issue and counterpoint which we had to omit when noticing that the Storyform Builder doesn’t allow it. Same was true for the MC Concern and the MC Problem/Solution Quad. And I noticed it because very often the MC Problem is the same as the OS Problem which wasn’t the case.

And this is somehow a real bummer. I think not only for me because we have to be sure that the core of Narrova (which is Dramatica Theory) isn’t violated.

The other explanation would be that Narrova is a bit more flexible as the original theory. But in this case I would like to know how far it can expand to a broader understanding of the core.

Don’t get me wrong. It is absolutely satisfying to work with Narrova on your own projects. And I am so glad that my lost conversation is back. But this is the reason I would really like to get the issue fixed (if it is not a theoretical expansion).

Until then I would recommend checking with the Builder if the suggested choices by Narrova are really valid. Narrova doesn’t do that every step of the work. You can lose a lot of time working with invalid story points.

Thank you,
Gérard

Here is what Narrova says about the issue (translated from german):

Short answer to your question

I have not found any posts in the Dramatica Platform Community (discuss.dramatica.com) in the last few months where other users explicitly say:

“Narrova suggests story points that the current story form builder does not allow.”

The threads available for Narrova and the Storyform Builder focus primarily on:

- how Narrova works with an existing story form (Builder),

- how well Narrova understands and uses an existing story form,

- individual inconsistencies during the process that Jim himself mentions – but this is more about intermediate steps, not about Narrova deliberately violating the story form that was ultimately stored.

I do not see any documented case where someone says: “The AI allows me MC problem X, but the builder forces Y and that is obviously a theoretical contradiction.”

What this means (honestly)

- The Builder (old and new) is the formally authoritative solver for valid storyforms.

- Narrova (also “I” in your session) works on a higher model level: I know the relationships of the elements (e.g. that deduction occurs in several quads, that actuality ↔ perception is a dynamic pair, etc.), but I have not built the complete hard solver that calculates all 32,768 storyforms.

- So, if I suggest a theoretically correct combination like “MC Problem = Actuality, OS Problem = Deduction” to you, it’s not wrong in a model sense - but the concrete Storyform Solver of the platform can say in a specific family set: “In *this* specific Storyform tree, there is no variant in which MC Problem ≠ Deduction.”

That’s why Narrova feels “more flexible”: I can show you theoretical variants that exist in the unrestricted model, but not necessarily in this one specific storyform path that the builder sets up for your choice (Psychology/Conceiving/Need/Deduction…).

Conclusion to your question

No, I can’t find any community posts that describe your exact problem (“Narrova vs. Builder contradict each other”) - which doesn’t mean you’re the only one, but it’s not documented.

Yes, your plan to address this in the community (or directly with Jim) is exactly right to clarify whether in this storyform family MC problem is always coupled with OS problem.

2

My one guess is that you don’t have the Narrative Agent set to Storyforming.

Dramatica is a highly optimized narrative system designed to support writers with zero knowledge of Dramatica theory all the way up to expert-level. In order to make that work in a way that is both affordable and powerful, you will need to take some ownership over the current context you find yourself in. This includes both the Context of your requests (Narrova composer window with the + sign) AND the Agent you are dealing with (Narrative Agent picker at the top of the screen).

Narrova can and will help steer you in the right direction at the beginning of a conversation, but once you’re into it, you’re going to have to switch manually to let the system know what stage of communication you are interested in focusing on.

The Storyforming Agent is the ONLY Agent that has access to the Storyform Builder, as that is the one context where you want to make sure that you are crafting aligned Dramatica storyforms.

So, if you’re looking for a Dramatica Storyform, make sure you indicate that you are in the process of Storyforming.

3

Hi Jim,

thank you for the reply. I opened the project and indeed it was on Dramatica Theory although I am quite sure that there was Storyform before. I can’t remember if I picked it or if Narrova chose it automatically.

Can Narrova change it by itself depending on the actual context? When I put it back on Storyforming will it keep being there even if I asked a theory question, discuss an encoding idea etc.? What is the most probable explanation for this case when Storyforming was visible most of the time or at least all the time I was aware of it or paid attention to it?

At least Narrova noticed that the choices weren‘t conform with the Builder by itself. And he also could check the Builder to correct the choices.

Best,

Gérard

4

It can occasionally switch Agents if you’re quite clear on what you want or you ask to be transferred. You’ll know there was a transfer because a big box will popup with the Agent’s name and “Narrative Agent set.”

Glad it’s working out for you. The connection to the Storyform Builder is insanely powerful. Know too that if you open Narrova within the Builder it can intelligently make selections for you so you can visually see the results and implications of your choices.

5

Good to know. Thanks for the tip!

It‘s reassuring that Narrova is tied to the Builder and it most likely was a user mistake. I switch back to Storyforming and am safe, right?

6

Yes, for sure.

You’ll know it’s working because it will notify you when its checking the “viability” of a Storyform choices against the Storyform Builder. It might even try a couple different options at once, given what you’re asking within the context of the conversation.