Google+ Hangouts will be the death of me.
More issues creating and publicizing the Dramatica Users Group event last night – apologies as always. Going to keep working on making it better and easier. Made the video public this morning and everyone should be able to watch if they want:
Sweet Smell of Success – Dramatica Users Group
If you want to participate next time when the movie will be Cool Hand Luke, please review how to join us online.
So it was last night. I WAS confused. I should have known, It’s always on Tuesdays. I first got a notification it was coming Thursday then a few seconds later it was tonight. I will definitely want to participate in Cool Hand Luke. Thank you Jim.
I also am getting the notifications a bit differently than before. The analysis before this one, The importance of being earnest, I experienced the same thing as SPotter and for this one, Sweet smell of success, I received the notification the day of.
I know Google+ has been a POS for these types of things… so this isn’t a complaint or anything… just figured more info might help. Mayb a redundant notification process can be made on these forums?
That’s probably on me. I didn’t create the Event for Sweet Smell until about 3 minutes before. I went ahead and made the one for Luke yesterday so if you sign up for it you should be reminded.
And I will start using this place to help remind people a couple of days before. Really happy with the engagement here!
@chuntley So I finally caught up with Sweet Smell of Success. Great discussion. Can we agree that Clifford Odets was a master storyteller. Man! there is not one wasted character or moment in this story.
Take the horse playing wife or the cigarette girl. Both could have been just plot devices but Odets make them fit tightly into the theme.
I was hoping someone could go deeper with how the cigarette girl fit into the overall story of Manipulation. She was in trouble. She might possibly lose her job because she refused the advances of a columnist. She asked for the publicity manager’s(Sydney Falco) help. He conceived an idea how to use this to his purposes (which backfired) So he conceived another idea how he could use cigarette girl to his purpose. He brings home another columnist(Larry Tate of McMahan and Tate) whom he intends to pimp cigarette girl out to.
When publicity manager comes home cigarette girl is ready to kiss publicity manager but is foiled when columnist (Larry Tate) is with him. She immediately gets the gist and is not happy about it. “I’m not that kind of girl.” Publicity manager manipulates her into thinking she has no choice.
Columnist recognizes cigarette girl from somewhere but can’t pin down where, see, but she denies they’ve ever met. It turns out when publicity manager leaves them alone she reveals they met in Palm Springs.
So, she was that kind of girl with this columnist at least once before it would seem.
Is the problem of induction being illustrated with her? These guys induce that she is one of those girls? She insists she’s not but finds herself (again) as one of those girls? She has to drink to tolerate it. Is this a consequence for her (conceiving)? or a cost (learning)? help
here’s a link to the analysis. http://dramatica.com/analysis/sweet-smell-of-success
Is it possible for a character to represent a narrative’s static story points?
GOAL: Conceiving an Idea
CONSEQUENCE: Gathering Information
COST: Contemplation
DIVIDEND: The Present
REQUIREMENT: Playing a Role
PREREQUISITE: Doing
PRECONDITION: Impulsive Responses
FOREWARNINGS: How Things are Changing
Seems to illustrate Rita (aka. Cigarette Girl) quite well, no?
So, the cigarette girl has a goal to be conceived of as a decent woman, the kind of woman that is respectable.
If she does not succeed at this goal than others will gather the information that will undermine her reputation and she will be known as “that kind of girl” “Where have we met? I know we’ve met before.” “Palm Springs but don’t tell Sydney."
Along the way, given the present considerations, she makes poor choices that undermine her goal of being conceived as a respectable woman, but at other times things go well for her present situation but it never lasts long.
She must play the role of a respectable girl but a girl has got to work (prerequisite of Doing) She makes the poor choice of working as a cigarette girl.
Preconditions. I think her Impulsive Responses are to be a Respectable Woman but she’s also a mother and she wants to be a good mother and give her son a good future so when backed into a corner by men who want to use her she has to drink to numb her impulsive responses.
Forewarnings: How things are Changing. The cigarette girl’s storyline is on a downward slide. She starts out in trouble and things go from bad to worse for her.
I am not saying this is right but it feels pretty good and her storyline goes so well thematically this way with the overall story. Odets knew not of Dramatica but wrote so well and was a good story teller. Which strengthens my belief that Dramatica can help us get closer to writing like the masters.
The Consequences, Cost, Dividends… these do not relate to anybody specific, and would (at best) relate to everyone. The Goal is the same as the OS Concern, and that too relates to everyone.
So in that sense, they do relate to Rita.
There’s no reason she couldn’t be illustrating the others, except that she seems to be just enough from the central story of the movie to be the easiest narrative choice.
Sorry, I don’t understand what is meant by this. Can you explain further?
I am not sure if I understand your comment as well. I am very careful only to refer to her as the cigarette girl. She is only a part of the Overall Story. She could have been only a plot device or a cog in a wheel of publicity manager’s machine (Sydney). Odets, however, adds the fact that Columnist (Larry Tate) recognizes her from somewhere and she insists they never have. It’s a bit that continues through the whole scene. The scene is not over when the publicity manager leaves. We stay with columnist and cigarette girl for the payoff of her drinking to “get into the tropical mood” and admitting to columnist that they have met before in Palm Springs.
It is really satisfying to me to get moments like this in a movie/story. I couldn’t put my finger on what Odets was saying with it though. I was willing to bet it had purpose in his thematic argument and I knew Dramatically it would only make sense in the Overall Story.
I guess we agree. I am saying Odets’ screenplay does do the best and the Consequences, Costs, Dividends, Goal/OS Concern do relate to everyone. I wanted to pick one minor character and illustrate how it did. To us today this film may seem a little simple or straight forward but rather to me it is more like there is no fat. A style that probably couldn’t play well now unless in a decidedly stylized production but I enjoy it in these older movies.
I’ll adress the Forwarnings because they are the most clear to me.
If the OS Goal (what the Protagonist wants) is to have the Boyfriend get the picture that he needs to leave the Sister alone – then how is anything about the Cigarette girl’s life an indication that the Protagonist is going to Fail and the Consequences are going to kick in? They don’t – she’s simply too far removed from that part of the story.
Is it possible that a secondary character can represent the Forewarnings? Of course. I just don’t see it here.
In addition, if you want her to represent all of these things, specifically – that would require a lot of screen time, or some dense scenes. For things like requirement and prerequisite – these are steps along the path to achieving the story goal. So, yes, it’s possible that we see Sydney’s growth towards solving the problem in scenes with her, but do we? (I don’t know.)
That is what I mean.
These storypoints all refer to things that happen in the story – not specifically to any person or character. That is why it’s possible that she represents all of them. I am only suggesting that it’s a lot to put onto a secondary character. Odets probably does as good a job of anyone as having all themes reflect on all characters, but it’s such a tight narrative that he probably focuses the relevant pieces of information and drama on the central characters.
Yes. That makes sense. She seems to add to the thematic argument don’t you think? "If you compromise your self you are doomed.”or “If you refuse to compromise yourself or stop compromising yourself you might be able to redeem yourself.” (as represented by the wife of the other columnist)?
I am still wondering about the detail of the cigarette girl. Maybe she is a mini “tale” to emphasize the theme? or can the OS story concern/goal be more general than the specific. Can getting the Boyfriend to conceive the idea to leave the sister alone be a PART of the bigger picture?
I guess if I really want to make a thematic argument I need to speak in terms of Overall Story Issue: Need vs. Expediency
NEED: that which is required. [Variation].
It is often assumed that NEED describes something absolutely required in an objective sense. But NEED is really a subjective judgment of what is lacking to fulfill a requirement. To illustrate this, we might consider the statement, “We all need food and water.” This statement seems to make sense, but is not actually correct. In truth, we only need food and water if we want to live. For a paralyzed patient who wishes to be allowed to die, the last thing he NEEDs is food and water. Clearly, need depends upon what one subjectively desires. That which is required to fulfill that desire is the subjective NEED.
SYNONYMS: subjective necessity, urge, demand, imperative.
vs.
EXPEDIENCY: most efficient course considering repercussions. [Variation].
It is important not to consider Expediency as only meaning efficiency. In terms of story, Expediency describes what a character FEELS he must do or be in order to avoid potential consequences. These consequences can come from without in the form of disapproval by others or from within in the form of self-recrimination. If they are internal, Expediency feels like a “moral” pressure, but is really the emotional retribution one flails against oneself for disappointing one’s self-image. If they are external, Expediency feels like peer pressure or a threat to social standing. Expediency is as important an emotional motivation as Need is a motivator of reason. Since Expediency is based on avoiding future punishments or disappointments that may or may not be real, dramatic tension can be easily created between the relationship and overall views.
SYNONYMS: advisability, convenience, prudent efficiency.
Understood. Thank you for the answer.
I think you’re overthinking this @SPotter.
Yes, she adds to the thematic argument. (Almost everything will since it’s part of the larger equation.)
Is she a tale? I think Odets is really good at creating round characters – that may be why feels like she’s got her own thing going on. If you remover her, then sure, she’s a tale – this happens, then this happens, then this happens.
Getting the Boyfriend to conceive of leaving the sister alone is only part of the bigger picture – specifically the Goal of the bigger picture.
I’ve done a lot of thinking about what I was trying to say with this thread and maybe I’m making too BIG of a deal about the obvious. It just seems that a lesser writer would have used her only to move the plot but Odets gave it an extra tweak to add to the story. That’s all I really wanted to say. Maybe Odets wasn’t a great, I don’t really know but I love when every drop of juice is squeezed out of the fruit.